Leath

[jkclone]

So let's say you and your sibling are taken to the park by your mom. You're all having fun and playing, but your sibling is being a brat, throwing fits and breaking playground equiptment. Is your mom just going to leave you there while taking your sibling home to punish them? Or are you going to have to go with even though you were behaving yourself? Often in life, everyone gets punished because others are misbehaving. Same as in sports. When I played, the whole team ran when one person did something stupid.

And I think it will prevent things. Off the top of my head, I can't think of all too many student riots in Ames outside of VEISHA.

See you aren't getting it. To the students that are going to go drink and party nothing has changed. That is the problem it is still going to be VEISHA to them.

To your analogy though it is different like I said. I don't think there will necessarily be a riot this year but in your case the problem is stopped by punishing both kids. In the VEISHA issue it really won't prevent anything.

 

[ISUChippewa]

Yeah, pretty much. You're going to believe what you want to believe and I'm not interested enough to have any desire to change that. This isn't about Bubu though, so let's not completely derail it with your whimsical beliefs.

Have you ever been able to disagree with someone on here without being a complet ******* about it?

 

[cloneswereall]

What do you think canceling the non problem activities is going to do. Absolutely nothing there are already multiple unofficial VEISHA party things.

That is where the problem lies your punishing people not involved in something for the actions of others and the punishment more than likely isn't even going to stop the problems.

Alright. I keep seeing this whole "you're punishing the wrong people" shtick, but I guess I don't follow how these unofficial parties (which everyone admits are part of the problem) are going to be a lasting thing. Honest question, but without any of the non-problem activities, how well are the problem "activities" going to be attended and advertised? I mean hell, even in 05 when most of the activities still took place, VEISHEA week/end was a shell of itself.

I also think 05 was ramped up because it wasn't much before it that Geoffrey announced VEISHEA would be back in 06.

 

[cyrocksmypants]

See you aren't getting it. To the students that are going to go drink and party nothing has changed. That is the problem it is still going to be VEISHA to them.

To your analogy though it is different like I said. I don't think there will necessarily be a riot this year but in your case the problem is stopped by punishing both kids. In the VEISHA issue it really won't prevent anything.

Except you generally don't see giant riot inducing bar goings and house parties on a Tuesday in non-VEISHA weeks.

You can try to seperate the VEISHA activities from the students drinking and say one doesn't relate to the other all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the mentality of the students is going to be any different. VEISHA never officially condoned drinking in the first place. The students just did it more and harder because it was VEISHA week. For as long as VEISHA would exist, that would never change.

And I feel my example was fine. The damage of the playground equiptment was stopped by removing the kids and going home. The riots will stop (unless some group specifically decides to start one just to prove a point) with VEISHA gone. I'm sure you can find one or two, but you'd be hard up to find too many student caused riots in Ames that didn't revolve around VEISHA.

If I have a party one Saturday every month and someone gets assaulted at every party, if I stop having those parties, chances are I'll stop having people getting assaulted at my house. Not everyone at my party was assaulting people, and they're going to suffer because they won't be able to have the party to go to, but I'll be able to stop having stupid people assaulting others at my home.

 

[ImJustKCClone]

Except you generally don't see giant riot inducing bar goings and house parties on a Tuesday in non-VEISHA weeks.

You can try to seperate the VEISHA activities from the students drinking and say one doesn't relate to the other all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the mentality of the students is going to be any different. VEISHA never officially condoned drinking in the first place. The students just did it more and harder because it was VEISHA week. For as long as VEISHA would exist, that would never change.

And I feel my example was fine. The damage of the playground equiptment was stopped by removing the kids and going home. The riots will stop (unless some group specifically decides to start one just to prove a point) with VEISHA gone. I'm sure you can find one or two, but you'd be hard up to find too many student caused riots in Ames that didn't revolve around VEISHA.

If I have a party one Saturday every month and someone gets assaulted at every party, if I stop having those parties, chances are I'll stop having people getting assaulted at my house. Not everyone at my party was assaulting people, and they're going to suffer because they won't be able to have the party to go to, but I'll be able to stop having stupid people assaulting others at my home.

So don't invite the ones doing the assaulting.

As for your park scenario, you forgot one. The child who's misbehaving gets to sit his *** down next to me and watch the other children playing.

 

[roundball]

get over Bubu Palo already! He made his choices and has to live with them. Seems to me, Leath has been nothing but great as the ISU president. There are a few more important things going on besides a drunkfest and an ex-basketball player who made his own stupid decisions.

I agree. Leath has arguably made a few missteps as surely all new college presidents do (Bubu, VEISHEA, the Harkin Institute fiasco), but overall he's been solid on the things that matter (increasing enrollment, adding faculty positions, freezing tuition). It's gotten him some praise.

 

[cloneswereall]

So don't invite the ones doing the assaulting.

As for your park scenario, you forgot one. The child who's misbehaving gets to sit his *** down next to me and watch the other children playing.

How do you enforce that? Have personal police escorts for all houses of students not involved in VEISHEA?

 

[Frak]

See you aren't getting it. To the students that are going to go drink and party nothing has changed. That is the problem it is still going to be VEISHA to them.

To your analogy though it is different like I said. I don't think there will necessarily be a riot this year but in your case the problem is stopped by punishing both kids. In the VEISHA issue it really won't prevent anything.

There are still going to be parties in the spring for sure. Some will be big and some will get out of hand and get busted. But, with no set VEISHEA, all of those parties aren't focused on one week. The big party houses will still have big parties, but that will be like any other weekend without the amped up "It's VEISHEA, lets get super wasted and maybe riot" attitude. And without the added out-of-towners that make the trek to Ames for a big party weekend every April. I guess what I'm saying is that the big parties will be more spread out over multiple weekends instead of focusing on one.

 

[ImJustKCClone]

How do you enforce that? Have personal police escorts for all houses of students not involved in VEISHEA?

It was a rather facetious response, made directly to a scenario presented by Cyrocksmypants:

"If I have a party one Saturday every month and someone gets assaulted at every party, if I stop having those parties, chances are I'll stop having people getting assaulted at my house. Not everyone at my party was assaulting people, and they're going to suffer because they won't be able to have the party to go to, but I'll be able to stop having stupid people assaulting others at my home."

 

[cloneswereall]

It was a rather facetious response, made directly to a scenario presented by Cyrocksmypants:

"If I have a party one Saturday every month and someone gets assaulted at every party, if I stop having those parties, chances are I'll stop having people getting assaulted at my house. Not everyone at my party was assaulting people, and they're going to suffer because they won't be able to have the party to go to, but I'll be able to stop having stupid people assaulting others at my home."

I know what it was in response to. I also know you have said in the past that cancelling the entire event isn't fair to those that weren't breaking the rules/causing wanton destruction, so I assumed that was one of the ways to help prevent riots/disturbances. I asked how it could be enforced. I'm still waiting on how your analogy to keep the event would be enforceable as a way to prevent riots from occurring again.

 

[CyDude16]

See you aren't getting it. To the students that are going to go drink and party nothing has changed. That is the problem it is still going to be VEISHA to them.

To your analogy though it is different like I said. I don't think there will necessarily be a riot this year but in your case the problem is stopped by punishing both kids. In the VEISHA issue it really won't prevent anything.

VEISHEA*

 

[ImJustKCClone]

I know what it was in response to. I also know you have said in the past that cancelling the entire event isn't fair to those that weren't breaking the rules/causing wanton destruction, so I assumed that was one of the ways to help prevent riots/disturbances. I asked how it could be enforced. I'm still waiting on how your analogy to keep the event would be enforceable as a way to prevent riots from occurring again.

If you know what I've said in the past, then you also know that I HAVE presented alternatives. I'm tired of presenting them. If you're that interested in shooting down my opinions, go back and shoot them down where they were originally posted. Feel free to search back through my profile to find them. I've stopped bothering here because every time I get involved in the debate in a serious manner, I get all of the "VEISHEA is all about the parties, man" responses, and I'm never going to agree to that.

 

[Wesley]

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were implying.

However, this is not your grandfather's VEISHA anymore. It has become a glorified Mardi Gras. Kids no longer think of this as a celebration of Iowa State, at least until their parents arrive. This has become all about the party.

There are only so many chances you can give before you have to take it away.

My thrust remains to say to have something that does not lead to rioting because that gains nothing, but to have something in the spring for students to look forward to and can be controlled.

 

[CYKOFAN]

I mentioned in an email to Jaime on an unrelated that I thought Leath mishandled the Bubu situation. JP responded that they did the only right thing as they were privy to "inside information" that was not public. He even used the word immoral which makes me nervous as others are making moral judgements on my behalf. I will decide if and when something is immoral to me! But I suppose it's in their job descriptions.

Well said. People in power have used the old "trust us, we know more than you do" line many times before to abuse others. It was used to drum up public opinion against Wayne Morgan and used to publicly slander BuBu. To me that's just as immoral if not more so than pre-marital sex. I don't know how anybody can defend how Leath handled the Bubu case almost from start to finish, especially the way he contradicted himself on statements about the ALJ, and slandered BuBu in his very public statements. And the fact is, JP and Leath don't know any more about the case than the County Attorney and ALJ, who dropped the case and ruled there was not a violation of the student code (ALJ). Add in the fact that we have now lost our great VEISHEA tradition and somehow lost the Harkin papers worth millions, and I'm scratching my head as to how Leath is doing a good job.

 

[CyDude16]

Well said. People in power have used the old "trust us, we know more than you do" line many times before to abuse others. It was used to drum up public opinion against Wayne Morgan and used to publicly slander BuBu. To me that's just as immoral if not more so than pre-marital sex. I don't know how anybody can defend how Leath handled the Bubu case almost from start to finish, especially the way he contradicted himself on statements about the ALJ, and slandered BuBu in his very public statements. And the fact is, JP and Leath don't know any more about the case than the County Attorney and ALJ, who dropped the case and ruled there was not a violation of the student code (ALJ). Add in the fact that we have now lost our great VEISHEA tradition and somehow lost the Harkin papers worth millions, and I'm scratching my head as to how Leath is doing a good job.

slander bubu? Link.

secondly, the students acting like idiots caused VEISHEA being cancelled. And thirdly, harkin didn't want to agree to the terms that the regents/iowa state wanted and took his ball and went home...or to drake.

if you don't think leath has been doing great as a replacement of Geoffrey, you truly are daft.

 

[Wesley]

slander bubu? Link.

secondly, the students acting like idiots caused VEISHEA being cancelled. And thirdly, harkin didn't want to agree to the terms that the regents/iowa state wanted and took his ball and went home...or to drake.

if you don't think leath has been doing great as a replacement of Geoffrey, you truly are daft.

He flat out is not as good as Geoffrey. Maybe he will get better.

What I am saying is something like Clinton > Bush or Obama

 

[CYKOFAN]

slander bubu? Link.

secondly, the students acting like idiots caused VEISHEA being cancelled. And thirdly, harkin didn't want to agree to the terms that the regents/iowa state wanted and took his ball and went home...or to drake.

if you don't think leath has been doing great as a replacement of Geoffrey, you truly are daft.

"Honor before victory" when it came to BuBu, who has never been convicted of anything. But not so much for a couple of football players accused and/or convicted of felonies but allowed to play. He also told the press that BuBu wasn't being allowed to play (at the same time convicted felons were), so figure it out for yourself (clearly insinuating that BuBu had done something worse than the players who were being allowed to play). That not only was slanderous but in the eyes of the law, ALJ, and district judge, completely false. Nobody is saying drunk students aren't responsible for what they do, but blaming Veishea instead of those responsible for the riots is wrongheaded imo and cancelling Veishea instead of dong a better job of finding solutions is lazy. So now the few idiots that riot have stopped a great ISU tradition, and it will be no surprise if there are still drunk parties that get out of control every few years anyway. And Harkin didn't take his ball and go home, he's an ISU alum, not Drake. Leath managed to lose his valuable papers for our university and it wouldn't be a surprise if politics was involved. And the namecalling probably says more about you than me.

 

[CyDude16]

"Honor before victory" when it came to BuBu, who has never been convicted of anything. But not so much for a couple of football players accused and/or convicted of felonies but allowed to play. He also told the press that BuBu wasn't being allowed to play (at the same time convicted felons were), so figure it out for yourself (clearly insinuating that BuBu had done something worse than the players who were being allowed to play). That not only was slanderous but in the eyes of the law, ALJ, and district judge, completely false. Nobody is saying drunk students aren't responsible for what they do, but blaming Veishea instead of those responsible for the riots is wrongheaded imo and cancelling Veishea instead of dong a better job of finding solutions is lazy. So now the few idiots that riot have stopped a great ISU tradition, and it will be no surprise if there are still drunk parties that get out of control every few years anyway. And Harkin didn't take his ball and go home, he's an ISU alum, not Drake. Leath managed to lose his valuable papers for our university and it wouldn't be a surprise if politics was involved. And the namecalling probably says more about you than me.

Were those fball players ever appealed to leath? No? Thought so.

Tom Hill would me more to blame than Leath on VEISHEA. VEISHEA, the name itself is now just associated with binge drinking, getting wild, that is a fact.

harkin, as much as I like and respect him, didn't get everything the way he wanted, so he bailed on his university.

 

[CYKOFAN]

Were those fball players ever appealed to leath? No? Thought so.

Tom Hill would me more to blame than Leath on VEISHEA. VEISHEA, the name itself is now just associated with binge drinking, getting wild, that is a fact.

harkin, as much as I like and respect him, didn't get everything the way he wanted, so he bailed on his university.

Do you really think if Leath and JP didn't want those football players on the field, they would be? BuBu was back on the team and eligible to play, but JP and Leath went out of their way with their public statements to make it impossible for Fred to play him. Where were the "honor before victory" public statements for the football felons? And painting all of Veishea as just a wild drunkfest is unfair and an easy way to dump it imo. And they're Harkin's papers, why shouldn't he get all or at least most of what he wanted? Seems like putting restrictions on them is a pretty big deal, and obviously it was to the Harkins. We're just not gonna agree at all on this but that doesn't make either one of us "daft".

 

[norsemen]

The Harkin Institute was created and in trouble before Leath took over. Leath did try and find common ground between the Regents and the Harkins but was unable to do so. The Harkins claim of "academic freedom" seemed to me a red herring as I believe the faculty senate had written a statement in that they had no worries on such based on the compromise conditions that had been proposed. The fact that ISU already had an decades-old institute that covered some of what the Harkins wanted to do made things complicated.