*****The Super, Mega, Huge Big 12 Expansion Thread*****

[hawkfan]

And if ND has so much Big 10 history, why haven't they joined yet? They are still likely to stay indy, but Big 10 doesn't seem likely.

LOL. I think you answered your question with the first statement following the question.

ND isn't in the Big Ten (or any conference) because they don't want to be in a conference. Period.

The only two scenarios where ND will join a conference are when either A.) Super conferences form and ND has to join a conference to compete for a BCS NC. or B.) The Big East falls apart and ND has no where to go for its non revenue sports.

If neither A.) or B.) happen, ND stays independent. Period. No amount of money will get them to join a conference. The Big Ten offered them nearly $10M more per year last year than their current TV deal was making them and they said no - they value their independence more than any amount of money that a conference could throw at them.

 

[CloneSolo]

LOL. I think you answered your question with the first statement following the question.

ND isn't in the Big Ten (or any conference) because they don't want to be in a conference. Period.

The only two scenarios where ND will join a conference are when either A.) Super conferences form and ND has to join a conference to compete for a BCS NC. or B.) The Big East falls apart and ND has no where to go for its non revenue sports.

If neither A.) or B.) happen, ND stays independent. Period. No amount of money will get them to join a conference. The Big Ten offered them nearly $10M more per year last year than their current TV deal was making them and they said no - they value their independence more than any amount of money that a conference could throw at them.

Even though it pains me to agree with someone named "hawkfan" I agree. Notre Dame still feels they are elite, and they cherish there "independent" status more than most posters have mentioned.

However, I see the younger faction of the Notre Dame fan base pushing for being more open to joining a conference. I don't know what year there tv contract is through with NBC, but I doubt they will have the bargaining power they did when it does. No matter what ND fans, alumni, etc say they have not been relevant for years/ decade. If they have been looking ahead, and seeing what tv options are available, maybe Mr. Dodds could make a strong case for the Big 12 , and its revenue opportunities and the ability for ND to have some "independence" in this aspect.

Just m thoughts

 

[CycloneErik]

Even though it pains me to agree with someone named "hawkfan" I agree. Notre Dame still feels they are elite, and they cherish there "independent" status more than most posters have mentioned.

However, I see the younger faction of the Notre Dame fan base pushing for being more open to joining a conference. I don't know what year there tv contract is through with NBC, but I doubt they will have the bargaining power they did when it does. No matter what ND fans, alumni, etc say they have not been relevant for years/ decade. If they have been looking ahead, and seeing what tv options are available, maybe Mr. Dodds could make a strong case for the Big 12 , and its revenue opportunities and the ability for ND to have some "independence" in this aspect.

Just m thoughts

He does have a good point, and historically, ND obviously hasn't been too fond of conferences.

On the other hand, our offer is potentially a lot more lucrative than the Big 10 offer, since ND could maintain their TV independence, at least on the 3rd Tier games.

 

[CYphyllis]

LOL. I think you answered your question with the first statement following the question.

ND isn't in the Big Ten (or any conference) because they don't want to be in a conference. Period.

The only two scenarios where ND will join a conference are when either A.) Super conferences form and ND has to join a conference to compete for a BCS NC. or B.) The Big East falls apart and ND has no where to go for its non revenue sports.

If neither A.) or B.) happen, ND stays independent. Period. No amount of money will get them to join a conference. The Big Ten offered them nearly $10M more per year last year than their current TV deal was making them and they said no - they value their independence more than any amount of money that a conference could throw at them.

Shocking, you're uninformed again. ND won't join the B10 for reasons that have nothing to do with football.

Do you honestly think a strict Catholic university like Notre Dame is going to academically align themselves with schools that are knee deep in stem cell research (see: University of Chicago, Northwestern)?

 

[cyman05]

You need to first ask why Notre Dame values independence. Is it that they like the scheduling flexibility? Doubt it. Is it that that they think it's the route to the most money? Absolutely not. So any answer as to what conference they'll join that has to do with money should be disregarded. Is it that they like the prestige it brings? My guess is that is the most likely, but I don't really know.

If they like the prestige, it would seem to me that they'd either join the SEC to be in the #1 conference, or join the Big 12 to get to keep their own network. I think 99% of people would agree that they're not joining the SEC, so the Big 12 would seem to be the most likely shot in my opinion.

But yes, you guys are right that they're probably not doing anything...if they were to join a conf. though, it seems that the Big 12 would seem the most logical.

 

[DRCHIRO]

Shocking, you're uninformed again. ND won't join the B10 for reasons that have nothing to do with football.

Do you honestly think a strict Catholic university like Notre Dame is going to academically align themselves with schools that are knee deep in stem cell research (see: University of Chicago, Northwestern)?

Very good point.

There are some moral issues that go much deeper than football that will keep them out of the conference.

 

[hawkfan]

Shocking, you're uninformed again. ND won't join the B10 for reasons that have nothing to do with football.

Do you honestly think a strict Catholic university like Notre Dame is going to academically align themselves with schools that are knee deep in stem cell research (see: University of Chicago, Northwestern)?

LOL. I'm uninformed:

The Big Ten affiliation also would have made Notre Dame a member of the Committee on Institutional Cooperation, a consortium of all 11 Big Ten schools and one-time conference member the University of Chicago.

Joining the CIC would have boosted Notre Dame's graduate programs, which lag far behind schools in the Big Ten, although it was also seen as a threat to Notre Dame's traditional emphasis on undergraduate education.

In October, the school's Faculty Senate voted 25-4 in favor of joining the CIC, but no mention of the Big Ten was made.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/news/1999/02/04/notredame_bigten/

Yeah, that faculty was really worried about the research going on at CIC universities back in 1999 - seeing as 86% of the vote was IN FAVOR of joining the CIC.

You can create a lot of arguments as to why ND won't join the Big Ten - but academics/research sure as hell isn't one of them.

 

[CYphyllis]

LOL. I'm uninformed:



CNN/SI - College Football - Notre Dame board nixes Big Ten - Friday February 05, 1999 03:10 PM

Yeah, that faculty was really worried about the research going on at CIC universities back in 1999 - seeing as 86% of the vote was IN FAVOR of joining the CIC.

You can create a lot of arguments as to why ND won't join the Big Ten - but academics/research sure as hell isn't one of them.

Back in 1999. The first stem cell line wasn't even created until 1998 and didn't become a hot topic of debate until early in the 2000's. One could easily argue that at the point in time in which Notre Dame voted, those schools were only in the infant stages of research if any research was being done at all.

Fast forward 12 years and the University of Chicago and Northwestern are the two leading stem cell research universities in the country. Times change.

 

[hawkfan]

Back in 1999. The first stem cell line wasn't even created until 1998 and didn't become a hot topic of debate until early in the 2000's. One could easily argue that at the point in time in which Notre Dame voted, those schools were only in the infant stages of research if any research was being done at all.

I'm sure those public research universities weren't researching anything at all back in 1999 that would have been frowned upon by a Catholic university.

Also, you're telling me no Big 12 schools do ANY kind of research that Catholics would not want to be involved in?

Seriously. You got pwned hard. The faculty voted almost unanimously to join the CIC back in 1999, they'd do the same again. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

 

[cyman05]

You all are forgetting one of the major rules of college realignment.

1. Football is the only sport that matters
2. Money drives the boat, which is fueled by tradition and population to bring in TV sets
3. Academics don't matter
4. Geography is a minor influence when making decisions
5. Most important of all, do what is best for yourself and don't worry about the ramifications for anybody else

 

[Cyclonestate78]

You need to first ask why Notre Dame values independence. Is it that they like the scheduling flexibility? Doubt it. Is it that that they think it's the route to the most money? Absolutely not. So any answer as to what conference they'll join that has to do with money should be disregarded. Is it that they like the prestige it brings? My guess is that is the most likely, but I don't really know.

If they like the prestige, it would seem to me that they'd either join the SEC to be in the #1 conference, or join the Big 12 to get to keep their own network. I think 99% of people would agree that they're not joining the SEC, so the Big 12 would seem to be the most likely shot in my opinion.

But yes, you guys are right that they're probably not doing anything...if they were to join a conf. though, it seems that the Big 12 would seem the most logical.

Notre Dame really values the fact that they can schedule anyone, anytime, anywhere. That is a big bonus for them. A few years back they played Navy down in Florida. They scheduled a game a few years ago and played over in Ireland and last year played Army at Yankee Stadium. This gives them a ton of flexibility when it comes to recruiting. They can play games anywhere they want from coast to coast which one would think can help them in recruiting. This would be the one thing that would be a holdup to them joining any conference. It is also good to keep in mind that they have regular home and aways with Michigan, Stanford, USC, Boston College, and Michigan State just off the top of my head. To get them to join a conference you would have to ensure that they play no more then 8 conference games and that they have some flexibility within those 8 games to have some played at neutral sites. If a conference truly wants Notre Dame to join then they will have to be far more flexible then any conference has ever been to date. Allowing them to keep their own network deal is a huge road block for everyone except the Big XII. If flexibility in conference scheduling can be done then you have crossed another major hurdle. The Big XII tv deal would ensure that any ND game that is not on NBC would be televised and most likely on national tv as well. There is a lot for ND to like about the Big XII conference if they ever decide to jump.

 

[stateofmind]

Loud noises!!!

 

[cyman05]

Notre Dame really values the fact that they can schedule anyone, anytime, anywhere. That is a big bonus for them. A few years back they played Navy down in Florida. They scheduled a game a few years ago and played over in Ireland and last year played Army at Yankee Stadium. This gives them a ton of flexibility when it comes to recruiting. They can play games anywhere they want from coast to coast which one would think can help them in recruiting. This would be the one thing that would be a holdup to them joining any conference. It is also good to keep in mind that they have regular home and aways with Michigan, Stanford, USC, Boston College, and Michigan State just off the top of my head. To get them to join a conference you would have to ensure that they play no more then 8 conference games and that they have some flexibility within those 8 games to have some played at neutral sites. If a conference truly wants Notre Dame to join then they will have to be far more flexible then any conference has ever been to date. Allowing them to keep their own network deal is a huge road block for everyone except the Big XII. If flexibility in conference scheduling can be done then you have crossed another major hurdle. The Big XII tv deal would ensure that any ND game that is not on NBC would be televised and most likely on national tv as well. There is a lot for ND to like about the Big XII conference if they ever decide to jump.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're arguing they like the flexibility because it ties in directly to recruiting. If that's so, that bigger recruiting advantage would there be than to join a conference with multiple teams in Texas so that you play games there every year?

Yes, I see a recruiting advantage in USC or Stanford, but all their others schools they play don't have all that much to do with recruiting. They just need someone to play with a decent name so their schedule doesn't look like trash.

And it's already been mentioned, but with conferences tending to a 9 game schedule, does that affect their desire to play ND at all? I don't know...probably not, because money is more important than wins to most schools.

 

[CYphyllis]

I'm sure those public research universities weren't researching anything at all back in 1999 that would have been frowned upon by a Catholic university.

Also, you're telling me no Big 12 schools do ANY kind of research that Catholics would not want to be involved in?

Seriously. You got pwned hard. The faculty voted almost unanimously to join the CIC back in 1999, they'd do the same again. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Name a bigger topic then stem cell research to a Catholic university.

Unless Kansas is researching on the topic of how to spread homosexuality or if Mizzou is trying to clear the Jews from that whole crucifixtion debacle, hell maybe Texas is trying to figure out how to streamline abortions. I don't personally know what's going on behind closed doors, but even these completely fabricated ideas don't trump stem cell research in the eyes of a stringent Catholic.

ND may have been in favor of joining in 1999, but lets look at what else happened that year:

The American public made Cher - Believe the #1 song of the year.

Things change, times change, opinions change, topics of interest change, everything changes. To think that because a vote went one way 12 years ago that it would do the same now is not only naive, it's idiotic.

Also if you ever want anything to ever be taken seriously, never type out the word 'pwned' again.

 

[Al_4_State]

Um, things besides football DO matter. Utah got the nod into the Pac 12 over BYU because of BYU's religious affiliation. Had Nebraska already been out of the AAU last year, they wouldn't have got the Big 10 nomination (might have been Mizzou instead, if they had kept their traps shut).

If anyone thinks that the Big 10's stem cell research is a non-issue, they have their head as far in the sand as anyone who thinks A&M might not leave.

 

[Cyclonestate78]

I'm sure those public research universities weren't researching anything at all back in 1999 that would have been frowned upon by a Catholic university.

Also, you're telling me no Big 12 schools do ANY kind of research that Catholics would not want to be involved in?

Seriously. You got pwned hard. The faculty voted almost unanimously to join the CIC back in 1999, they'd do the same again. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

The fact they voted for it isn't surprising. While Notre Dame is the flagship Catholic university in the country you have to remember that it is still a business. Tell me any business that isn't constantly trying to increase the amount of money they are bringing in? Now sure... there are idealogicial differences on certain issues but for the benefit of their students and the university itself those can be overlooked.

 

[cyman05]

Um, things besides football DO matter. Utah got the nod into the Pac 12 over BYU because of BYU's religious affiliation. Had Nebraska already been out of the AAU last year, they wouldn't have got the Big 10 nomination (might have been Mizzou instead, if they had kept their traps shut).

If anyone thinks that the Big 10's stem cell research is a non-issue, they have their head as far in the sand as anyone who thinks A&M might not leave.

But now that Nebraska is out of the AAU it is okay?

I'll give you the fact that the Pac10/12 isn't going to accept religiously affiliated schools, but if they wanted academically prestigious schools, why'd they agree to accept Texas Tech and Oklahoma State? I'd have to look it up, but I thought Okie State was a tier 3 research university!

I don't buy the fact that academics factor into these decisions at all.

 

[Al_4_State]

But now that Nebraska is out of the AAU it is okay?

I'll give you the fact that the Pac10/12 isn't going to accept religiously affiliated schools, but if they wanted academically prestigious schools, why'd they agree to accept Texas Tech and Oklahoma State? I'd have to look it up, but I thought Okie State was a tier 3 research university!

I don't buy the fact that academics factor into these decisions at all.

There's a rumor that the Big 10 rejected an OU/OSU combo due to Okie State's poor academics. Take that as you will.

Nebraska met the Big 10's academic requirements when they were added, and even today, while at the bottom of the Big 10, they're still miles ahead of schools like OSU and KSU.

I'm not saying that academics are anywhere near football, but they haven't been thrown out the window like so many suggest. At least not for the three academically snobbish conferences.

 

[twojman]

Everyone says this, but I don't understand this comment. The individual networks are for 3rd tier rights. That means for the Longhorn network to get a game on, ESPN/ABC is using a pricey 1st tier pick to do it. It's not like that's an affordable strategy if you had a number of individual networks. Between the ABC deal and the brand new Fox deal, you basically have all football games but one already contracted out.

Now, if Texas didn't agree to pool their 1st or 2nd tier conferences games with everyone else I'd be worried.

In the end, everyone is getting so worked up about the Longhorn network, but they're really not going to have much to show on it.

If having a conference network is so important, then how come people aren't worrying about the SEC's stability? Teams in the SEC control their 3rd tier rights and contract them out like Florida. The only difference is that Florida's 3rd tier rights are going to some cable station instead of a university dedicated network.

Yes, a university network continues the inequity between teams, but there is already a vast divide between the equality of teams when it comes to team revenues already.

The Big 12 is different then the SEC, Florida does not make all the decisions for the SEC while it seems Texas makes all the decisions for the Big 12. There seems to be inequity in decision making and in money. As long as this disparity continues even OU may get upset with Texas and decide to go elsewhere.

Equity in Tier 1 & 2 rights would be a good start. I know people say there is only a couple million difference from the top and bottom but that is huge for ISU. Texas will not miss (I am making up #'s) $1.5 million while a school like ISU can do a ton with $1 million annually.

 

[cyman05]

Best line of the whole realignment discussion in the last couple summers:

Until the University of Miami and its football player perk-happy boosters assumed the position for their NCAA spanking this week, sports’ scolds had their sights set firmly on Texas A&M. The reason? That school’s audacious plot to leave the shrinking Big 12 high and dry for college football’s marquee Southeastern Conference (SEC). If and when it flies southeast, Texas A&M is going to be more vulnerable than a PETA activist at an NRA convention. Before then, the Aggies should really stop and take a long look at the home pastures around them.

State of Football: Is Texas a Mess? - BusinessWeek