Car chase and shots fired

TXCyclones

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How about firing one warning shot and then telling the driver that if the truck starts to move the next shots will be at the driver.

Just an FYI, the standing directive for the Iowa State Patrol, and nearly all police forces in the state are that the patrolman's gun is not to be drawn unless he intends to use it, and if it's fired it is only with intent to kill the subject. Warning shots are not allowed. And these directives are in place because there are many other means in place to subdue a subject.
 

TXCyclones

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Wait, you just quoted "trained officer" there, didn't you?

Which part do you have a problem admitting is actually true?

What part of "trained officer" do you think isn't true?

While I think the officer went through training as is required of all officers I don't think he was a well-trained officer. Just like all students go through school doesn't make them all good students.
 

agrabes

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So, basically some of you are saying people are allowed to do whatever they ******* please as long as they are not armed with a gun? Because, rolling a trailer up on to a police cruiser isn't considered dangerous?

C'mon. I'm tired of people wanting to treat somebody with angel like gloves after he tore through campus almost rolling the trailer on to a girl and recklessly doing anything to get away from police.

There's a big difference from "doing whatever they please" and "shoot to kill". It's ridiculous to claim that anything less than shooting the driver was "treating him with angel gloves." This isn't the movies, a real person was killed here for driving recklessly and ramming a cop car. Does the punishment fit the crime? In an ideal situation, the answer is no. If this person could have been safely apprehended, he would not have been sentenced to death for his crimes. It's definitely right to question the use of lethal force in this situation.

In my opinion, this one is a real gray area. In this case, I would like to think the police made a calculated decision and decided that the risk was too great if they did not stop this person at all costs and in the heat of the moment they could not think of any effective nonlethal options. I hope that their eventual report says something along those lines that they wished they could have done this without shooting the guy and that they will work on training to improve their ability to apprehend suspects in these types of scenarios. I'm sure that the officer who took the shot (unlike some posters here) was not happy that he had to do it.
 

3TrueFans

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He was done driving when that "trained officer" fired his shots. The car was penned in.
He wasn't done driving, at least not until he was dead, police and eyewitnesses say he attempted to ram the police cars after he was "stopped".
 

Gnomeborg

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While I think the officer went through training as is required of all officers I don't think he was a well-trained officer. Just like all students go through school doesn't make them all good students.

And you are basing your assessment that he wasn't well-trained on what, exactly? This incident?
 

ianoconnor

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I don't think anyone honestly believes that. I'm pretty sure the question is "If you steal a car and drive it dangerously, do you deserve to die?". That is the bigger question. At what point do the authorities have consent to kill? There is an obligation to use minimum force necessary to protect the innocent. And please, there are plenty of documented cases of this obligation being woefully disregarded by members of the law enforcement community.
No, the question is -- "If a criminal steals a car, refuses to pull over, assaults an officer, attempts to evade police, drives recklessly through a densely populated campus, and chooses not to obey an order to shut off their vehicle while still trying to escape... is using deadly force to protect the well-being of innocent bystanders excessive?"

I'd say no.
 

Gnomeborg

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There's a big difference from "doing whatever they please" and "shoot to kill". It's ridiculous to claim that anything less than shooting the driver was "treating him with angel gloves." This isn't the movies, a real person was killed here for driving recklessly and ramming a cop car. Does the punishment fit the crime? In an ideal situation, the answer is no. If this person could have been safely apprehended, he would not have been sentenced to death for his crimes. It's definitely right to question the use of lethal force in this situation.

In my opinion, this one is a real gray area. In this case, I would like to think the police made a calculated decision and decided that the risk was too great if they did not stop this person at all costs and in the heat of the moment they could not think of any effective nonlethal options. I hope that their eventual report says something along those lines that they wished they could have done this without shooting the guy and that they will work on training to improve their ability to apprehend suspects in these types of scenarios. I'm sure that the officer who took the shot (unlike some posters here) was not happy that he had to do it.

But saying "does the punishment fit the crime?" here is a bit disingenuous, also. This kid wasn't punished for stealing a truck and driving recklessly by being put on the ground and shot. He was not executed. He was not punished. He was in a situation where he refused to comply with police instructions and face the consequences for his actions, and he acted in such a way that the officer felt either he or others were at risk enough to warrant action to prevent that danger.

Is losing one's life because you stole a truck and put people's lives at risk with your driving an apt punishment? No. But since he didn't lose his life as punishment, it's not a valid question.
 

JP4CY

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I would imagine that the police car videos hold a lot of answers to some of the questions of how the truck was wedged in, was he still revving it, how many warnings did the officer give?
Doesn't ISU have cameras on campus as well? It's been years since I've looked but they did once.
 

TXCyclones

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And you are basing your assessment that he wasn't well-trained on what, exactly? This incident?

Apparently you think the officer was well-trained. What are you basing your assessment on?
 

jbhtexas

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He was done driving when that "trained officer" fired his shots. The car was penned in.

Also, this wasn't a "car". I haven't seen a description of the vehicle in print, but from the pictures it looks like a 3/4 ton pickup. There's a huge difference between the two, particularly in the ability of police to ram/pin the vehicle.
 

Gnomeborg

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Apparently you think the officer was well-trained. What are you basing your assessment on?

uhm... the fact that he was hired....

But you don't get to turn this around, just because you can't answer. Knowing the basic requirements in order to become an officer, it is very easy to begin from an assumption of comprehensive training. I think you'd be hard pressed to convince that an assumption of incomplete training is equally apt.

So, again, answer the question: why do you think he was poorly trained?
 

TXCyclones

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uhm... the fact that he was hired....

But you don't get to turn this around, just because you can't answer. Knowing the basic requirements in order to become an officer, it is very easy to begin from an assumption of comprehensive training. I think you'd be hard pressed to convince that an assumption of incomplete training is equally apt.

So, again, answer the question: why do you think he was poorly trained?

So you think that every officer hired is a good officer? And because an officer has gone through training does not mean he's well-trained, just as every student who goes through school is not a good student. Based on my personal experience I'm basing it on six shots with one hit. I'm basing it on the fact that he fired his gun in the middle of campus, which goes against training. I'm basing it on the fact that the subject was already pinned. I'm basing it on the fact that other officers on site were already approaching the vehicle and training dictates that you don't discharge your weapon in this situation.
 

CapnCy

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I made the mistake of reading some of the Ames Trib comments.

There will be LOTS of second guessing by lots of people. And the DCI will, hopefully, take all the info available and provide a summary. Unfortunately, they only can go on what they have/know and not "what could have been."

For instance, I know there is varying opinions on the pursuit. The information says they didn't turn on their lights to actually ask him to pull over until they were on Beach. At that point, he rammed the cops and took off. He flew through a red light on lincoln way (how he didn't hit someone is beyond me..busiest street in Ames). The trailer flew off and thankfully didn't hit someone. What if the police would have quit there and done what the family is saying (you know the person and truck, find them later) and then he would have continued through and hit people on campus (he'd already shown extremely poor judgement by hitting a cop car and taking off).....the headlines read MUCH differently. People would be calling for the heads of the cops who let him go into a heavily populated area without trying harder to stop him.

As for the end of the event (HE took the chase off road, not police)...not sure they needed to shoot...but he certainly had not listened to ANY commands....and it sounds like while hung up, was sure trying to dislodge and continue on his journey.

I feel for his family. No one wants to lose a loved one. And they certainly have a right to question the events that lead to it. But I heard the dad say, "It was only over a pack of cigarettes" Well, kind of...but not really. He took the vehicle after an argument and the father felt calling the police was the best option...and we all know how that ended up.
 

3TrueFans

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So you think that every officer hired is a good officer? And because an officer has gone through training does not mean he's well-trained, just as every student who goes through school is not a good student. Based on my personal experience I'm basing it on six shots with one hit. I'm basing it on the fact that he fired his gun in the middle of campus, which goes against training. I'm basing it on the fact that the subject was already pinned. I'm basing it on the fact that other officers on site were already approaching the vehicle and training dictates that you don't discharge your weapon in this situation.
2 hits, at least try to get a few facts right. The suspect was ramming police vehicles in an attempt to escape. Does it just make it easier for you to ignore these things?
 

Gnomeborg

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So you think that every officer hired is a good officer? And because an officer has gone through training does not mean he's well-trained, just as every student who goes through school is not a good student. Based on my personal experience I'm basing it on six shots with one hit. I'm basing it on the fact that he fired his gun in the middle of campus, which goes against training. I'm basing it on the fact that the subject was already pinned. I'm basing it on the fact that other officers on site were already approaching the vehicle and training dictates that you don't discharge your weapon in this situation.

1) I didn't say good. Good was never part of the question or the answer. You don't get to say you don't believe he was well trained, than turn that into people disagreeing with you saying he was a good officer.

2) Making it through five years of school to become an engineer and learning nothing but what's on the test and then sucking as an engineer when you're out of school is a completely different kettle of fish than going through a Law Enforcement Academy. When every single job opening in the city of Ames results in between 200-500 applicants, and only 60-70 make it past the first battery of tests, which include knowledge of the law and police and emergency tactics, there's plenty of reason to believe that a dude who made it not just past that round of tests, but beat out every other applicant for his spot on the force, demonstrated the extent and his mastery of that training fairly well. Is it possible that a poorly trained officer did fake his way through the tests? Sure. Is there more sound reason to assume that he is well trained rather than poorly trained? Yes.

3) It was two hits, not one. Quit ignoring the repeated times you've been corrected on this.

4) Two hits: one in the head, one in the chest. A shoulder hit, on an M.E. report, is recorded as a hit to the chest, so long as it is on the front portion of the torso. A hit to the neck is recorded as a head hit, so long as it is above the collar bone. It is possible for two bullets, less than two inches apart, to be recorded as a hit to the head and chest. A six foot male behind the seat of a 3/4 ton pickup truck, viewed from a six foot officer standing on the ground presents less than a foot of area to hit. Putting two of those six shots onto target, especially if he was approaching from the front or side and viewing the perpetrator through a broken window, could have been a pretty astounding shot.

5) If the choice was either shoot the man in the truck or let the man continue to endanger officers and bystanders, I don't believe that asking the perpetrator if they could relocate to a more secure location was an option. Training does not state "don't fire around people." It's a lot more complicated than that. Again, looking at the above example, it is entirely possible that the other four bullets ended up in the seat of that truck.

6) Subject was penned, but not immobile, and non-compliant. Subject had shown a willingness to destroy property, run over pedestrians, and endanger officers with the vehicle that he was refusing to turn off. The subject was rocking the vehicle in order to dislodge it.

7) Other officers on the scene not firing does not mean that they didn't think it was appropriate for the officer who took the shot to shoot. A hundred variables could have kept them from shooting. The shooting officer could have been the only one with a clear shot. He could have been the closest. He was the one engaging the driver to tell him to turn off the car. Training does not dictate anything of what you're implying. His training would have been for him to make a risk assessment, taking the health and safety of not just himself and the other officers, but the pedestrians on campus into account. He made that assessment.

8) Just because you can monday morning quarterback the shooting two days later, and have, with a completely incomplete base of knowledge, declare it a bad shooting, does not mean it was. We will see in the days and weeks to come whether it was a bad shooting or not. But just because you, two days later, don't think you would have made the call to take the shots doesn't mean that he shouldn't have, and it certainly doesn't mean that there is or was some sort of lack in his training.
 

TXCyclones

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2 hits, at least try to get a few facts right. The suspect was ramming police vehicles in an attempt to escape. Does it just make it easier for you to ignore these things?

You're correct, two shots. Thanks. I had read the information shown on Monday and hadn't paid attention to the medical examiners report about the second hit.

As was discussed previously, this will be considered a justified shooting. But knowing how dumb 18 - 20 years olds can be I hope that none of the people on this board ever find their own kids in a similar situation.
 

3TrueFans

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You're correct, two shots. Thanks. I had read the information shown on Monday and hadn't paid attention to the medical examiners report about the second hit.

As was discussed previously, this will be considered a justified shooting. But knowing how dumb 18 - 20 years olds can be I hope that none of the people on this board ever find their own kids in a similar situation.
Stealing cars and running from police during a chase is not something dumb 18-20 year olds do, this is so far beyond just being a "dumb 18-20 year old".