Car chase and shots fired

[chuckd4735]

You're correct, two shots. Thanks. I had read the information shown on Monday and hadn't paid attention to the medical examiners report about the second hit.

As was discussed previously, this will be considered a justified shooting. But knowing how dumb 18 - 20 years olds can be I hope that none of the people on this board ever find their own kids in a similar situation.

Being a dumb teenager does not justify what happened. If this pursuit would of taken place out in the County, my guess is the cops would not of opened fire. Since it took place in a very densely populated area, they really had no choice but to make sure the chase ended right then and there one way or another.

The whole situation sucks, and I hope to god it never happens to anyone. In the end, there is only one person to blame for what went down, and that person paid the ultimate consequence.

 

[Gnomeborg]

You're correct, two shots. Thanks. I had read the information shown on Monday and hadn't paid attention to the medical examiners report about the second hit.

As was discussed previously, this will be considered a justified shooting. But knowing how dumb 18 - 20 years olds can be I hope that none of the people on this board ever find their own kids in a similar situation.

Ah man, I remember those crazy, dumb days back when I was 19. Getting drunk in corn fields, giving the raz to old ladies, getting my first dumb tattoo, cruising for chicks at close to 70 miles per hour in a stolen truck through a densley populated pedestrian area and continuing to ram police cars even when they pointed guns at me.....

Those were the days, man.

 

[Agclone91]

You're correct, two shots. Thanks. I had read the information shown on Monday and hadn't paid attention to the medical examiners report about the second hit.

As was discussed previously, this will be considered a justified shooting. But knowing how dumb 18 - 20 years olds can be I hope that none of the people on this board ever find their own kids in a similar situation.

Dumb 18-20 year olds get people pregnant, not intentionally endanger the lives of police officers and multiple civilians.

 

[TXCyclones]

Ah man, I remember those crazy, dumb days back when I was 19. Getting drunk in corn fields, giving the raz to old ladies, getting my first dumb tattoo, cruising for chicks at close to 70 miles per hour in a stolen truck through a densley populated pedestrian area and continuing to ram police cars even when they pointed guns at me.....

Those were the days, man.

I know of three sets of people who took cars on "joyrides" at different times back when I was on campus in the early 90's. Two of them were TKE's, three of them were on the baseball team, and two of them were guys living in the towers. In two scenario's the idiots had each climbed into running cars in the winter-time that were sitting warming-up and took off, and the other was sitting w/ the keys in it on campus by the library. Though in each of these three instances they all simply parked the car and left it, any of them could have easily escalated to a chase or worse, but didn't.

 

[MartyMcCy]

I know of three sets of people who took cars on "joyrides" at different times back when I was on campus in the early 90's. Two of them were TKE's, three of them were on the baseball team, and two of them were guys living in the towers. In two scenario's the idiots had each climbed into running cars in the winter-time that were sitting warming-up and took off, and the other was sitting w/ the keys in it on campus by the library. Though in each of these three instances they all simply parked the car and left it, any of them could have easily escalated to a chase or worse, but didn't.

Sounds like you know some real ***holes.

 

[carvers4math]

I have fairly mixed emotions about this entire situation, as my son was texting me in the middle of the situation to see if I knew what was going on since he saw it going down out the window of his classroom.

From the coverage in the Rag, assuming they are citing the Ames PD pursuit policy accurately, the pursuit should have ended because they knew the suspect's identity and could have apprehended him at a later time. Not seeing the entire policy and going by what was in the Rag. I would guess there may be some exceptions but not sure if they would apply. The article appears to indicate that the dispatcher suggested twice that pursuit should end in the "college area." When he said they knew who the driver was and could back off, he got no response.

I have no idea what was a greater danger to students. My guess would be had the pursuit ended at Lincoln Way and Beach, at least the truck would never had wound up on the grassy area of central campus. It may have sped through campus streets in a reckless manner and endangered students walking to class with their headphones and their attitude that eh, the car will stop for me. Of course, that also happened because of the pursuit.

Once the officer decided to pursue and had the car surrounded, not really sure what posed a greater threat to students in the area, the chances that a bullet ricochets off the truck and hits them, or the possibility that somehow the truck could escape and run someone down. By surrounding the truck, I am sure the officers were in some danger or thought so since he kept revving the engines. The students at this point probably had less danger from the truck than the bullets because they were clearing out of the area, but the officers were in danger from the truck or thought so and the young man was not following their directives.

In the Rag article, the father seems angry and devastated by grief. People should be sensitive to that. He is agonizing over his own decisions and the loss of his child. The officer probably is too. I am certain the entire thing will be thoroughly reviewed. My compassion and prayers go out to everyone involved.

 

[TXCyclones]

Sounds like you know some real ***holes.

Indeed. Natural selection isn't always working at peak performance, clearly.

 

[3TrueFans]

Indeed. Natural selection isn't always working at peak performance, clearly.

It's getting better.

 

[Gnomeborg]

From the coverage in the Rag, assuming they are citing the Ames PD pursuit policy accurately, the pursuit should have ended because they knew the suspect's identity and could have apprehended him at a later time.

This is kinda true, sort of. Pursuit is broken off if the identity of the suspect is known, and if an arrest can be made at a later time. Unfortunately, if some of the other reports that have come out are true, the young man in this case had been spending time in homeless shelters and living with different friends, having just broken up with his girlfriend. If this is the case, having no place of residence, that could have been justification for not breaking off pursuit. Also, pursuit is broken off if, and only if, the ending of the police involvement would likely lead to an immediate decrease of the threat level to bystanders. If they believed that pursuit or not, there was a chance he may still harm pedestrians, than they would not break off.

 

[Cycsk]

Just an FYI, the standing directive for the Iowa State Patrol, and nearly all police forces in the state are that the patrolman's gun is not to be drawn unless he intends to use it, and if it's fired it is only with intent to kill the subject. Warning shots are not allowed. And these directives are in place because there are many other means in place to subdue a subject.

So, is there a policy against shooting out tires in order to help immobilize a vehicle? Particularly if in a populated area because of the risk of stray bullets or richochets? It seems that the police were close enough to take a good shot at the tires if the driver was able to ram a squad car.

 

[carvers4math]

This is kinda true, sort of. Pursuit is broken off if the identity of the suspect is known, and if an arrest can be made at a later time. Unfortunately, if some of the other reports that have come out are true, the young man in this case had been spending time in homeless shelters and living with different friends, having just broken up with his girlfriend. If this is the case, having no place of residence, that could have been justification for not breaking off pursuit. Also, pursuit is broken off if, and only if, the ending of the police involvement would likely lead to an immediate decrease of the threat level to bystanders. If they believed that pursuit or not, there was a chance he may still harm pedestrians, than they would not break off.

The article also seems to indicate that he was getting a GED (I think it said at DMAAC) and was doing work with the dad, so those would be places he could be apprehended. Like I said before, without seeing the whole policy, not sure what the exceptions might be. Kind of curious to know if the dispatch was in contact with the father during the pursuit at all.

 

[CapnCy]

I have fairly mixed emotions about this entire situation, as my son was texting me in the middle of the situation to see if I knew what was going on since he saw it going down out the window of his classroom.

From the coverage in the Rag, assuming they are citing the Ames PD pursuit policy accurately, the pursuit should have ended because they knew the suspect's identity and could have apprehended him at a later time. Not seeing the entire policy and going by what was in the Rag. I would guess there may be some exceptions but not sure if they would apply. The article appears to indicate that the dispatcher suggested twice that pursuit should end in the "college area." When he said they knew who the driver was and could back off, he got no response.

I have no idea what was a greater danger to students. My guess would be had the pursuit ended at Lincoln Way and Beach, at least the truck would never had wound up on the grassy area of central campus. It may have sped through campus streets in a reckless manner and endangered students walking to class with their headphones and their attitude that eh, the car will stop for me. Of course, that also happened because of the pursuit.

Once the officer decided to pursue and had the car surrounded, not really sure what posed a greater threat to students in the area, the chances that a bullet ricochets off the truck and hits them, or the possibility that somehow the truck could escape and run someone down. By surrounding the truck, I am sure the officers were in some danger or thought so since he kept revving the engines. The students at this point probably had less danger from the truck than the bullets because they were clearing out of the area, but the officers were in danger from the truck or thought so and the young man was not following their directives.

In the Rag article, the father seems angry and devastated by grief. People should be sensitive to that. He is agonizing over his own decisions and the loss of his child. The officer probably is too. I am certain the entire thing will be thoroughly reviewed. My compassion and prayers go out to everyone involved.

I can't imagine the "what ifs" and "should haves" that the family is feeling as they are grieving. And they have every right to question/grieve that way. And I suspect that police officer is having his own grieving process that he'll have to live with. Not sure if folks read this, but I thought ISU's VP did a great job addressing some of the campus follow up during the moment: Letter to the editor: Incident on campus was safely handled - Iowa State Daily: Opinion

 

[CapnCy]

In my last job, county/local police used my place of residence to do active shooter training (using bullets that shot paint). They let me observe the training and it was really eye opening as I asked a lot of the questions folks are asking.

One scenario, in particular, they did was in the parking lot and it was a guy who had a hostage. They ordered that person out of the car and the person had a gun and had it to the head of the hostage. Without hesitation, they shot the guy in the head. I asked about that and without hesitation they said, "The person had been given directions to get out of the car, put their hands up. They got out with a weapon and it was pointed at another person." I of course asked about "why not shoot out the knee" and they reminded me when you draw a weapon, you shoot to end the situation. I even asked "but how would the public take that?" and they basically said they follow their procedures and make the best call based on the situation at hand, they don't think about the newspaper.

 

[isufbcurt]

Just my opinion but I don't see how a truck rammed into a tree is a threat to cops and other people around. There was nothing to indicate the guy had a gun, his truck was crashed and thus I don't see a need to shoot the guy. If nothing else ram your cop car into the truck and pin it between the cop car and tree so it can't move.

 

[00clone]

I think after 4 pages of the same arguments back and forth, it's time to admit that y'all ain't gonna agree, it won't change anything that happened, and the discussion on here won't change anything going forward either.

 

[Bigman38]

Some people play some GTA and all of a sudden turn into experts on how to immobilize cars. He already proved that truck was more then capable of crushing the police cars, anyone want to argue that? The assumption that they had him boxed in, or that boxing him in would have even worked is already a stretch. Not to mention if the cops make that assumption and are wrong it could have very easily cost innocent lives.

I asked earlier where some of you got the idea that the truck was incapacitated and it was obvious to the cops that it was permanently immobilized? If I missed a reasonable answer let me know.

 

[3TrueFans]

Just my opinion but I don't see how a truck rammed into a tree is a threat to cops and other people around. There was nothing to indicate the guy had a gun, his truck was crashed and thus I don't see a need to shoot the guy.

Just judging from the pictures the truck still looked very driveable.

 

[isufbcurt]

Just judging from the pictures the truck still looked very driveable.

Then ram it with a cop car, they have the big cattle guards on the front for a reason.

 

[3TrueFans]

Then ram it with a cop car, they have the big cattle guards on the front for a reason.

Again, judging by the pictures, it appears to have been rammed.

 

[Jonecy]

I don't care what anyone's stance is on this, it's a very sad deal and the kid was killed over a fit of rage. I can't imagine the guilt his Dad must be feeling. His Dad just tried to do the right thing and hold his son accountable, but that choice to call the cops resulted in his son's death. There's no way in a million years any Dad would call the cops on their son in this situation if he thought there was a remote chance he could be killed. I feel terrible for everyone involved.