Team McDermott or Team Hoiberg

[PabloDiablo]

Wait until the Big East rebuilds and McDoormat doesn't have his All American son making him look good. It will be like what we saw at ISU.

The Big East won't rebuild, the top 4-5 teams bolted in 'Cuse, Louisville, UConn, Pitt and to a lesser extent Notre Dame and Cincy. It just isn't the same league.

This fact is part of what makes Creighton fans so insufferable, they act like they are going to the Carrier dome and whooping Cuse on the road every night and standing on top of the old Big East.

 

[The_Architect]

From what I understand, McD was strict. For example, I don't think he would have likely babied Royce, look at the situation with Mike Taylor. I think that's a fine way to coach, but top recruits don't like it and don't want it. It just wasn't a good fit. I don't think he was a bad guy, it just wasn't right for him here.

McD just wanted to be a coach and go home at the end of the day. Fred is different, he wants to be one of the guys and enjoys being around them as much as possible. I don't think there's anything wrong with either approach.

Nobody else could have handled the coddling that Royce required though. Nobody.

 

[ImJustKCClone]

From what I understand, McD was strict. For example, I don't think he would have likely babied Royce, look at the situation with Mike Taylor. I think that's a fine way to coach, but top recruits don't like it and don't want it. It just wasn't a good fit. I don't think he was a bad guy, it just wasn't right for him here.

I'm thinking that was the rumor surrounding the departure of Wesley Johnson as well...that he was "yelled at too much". At the time, I felt that Wesley was wimping out. Now I'm not so sure, but that's water under the bridge.

 

[Angie]

I think he was disingenuous about that. It wasn't that he didn't think Dougie was good enough for ISU, he thought ISU wasn't good enough for his kid. And he drove plenty of good kids and players right out of town, whatever he was doing.

See, I think he was being realistic. How would most people answer these two questions:

1. McDermott was having terrible seasons. His son was reputed at that time to be a mid-major prospect. What would you say if he recruited and gave a scholarship to his own son, rather than to a higher-rated prospect, when we didn't have a winning record? (Think Ferentz and his son in assisted housing.)

2. You're a coach, and you've been on the fence for the last few seasons. If you give your son a spot, and you get fired, you know his chance is gone, too. Would you give it to him, anyway, or encourage him to look at a more secure position? Or, look at it differently - you own a big company on the verge of bankruptcy and closure. Would you encourage your child to look at a smaller company that was growing/stable, or tell them to turn down all of those offers to sign on with your failing company? (And think about how ticked people are that Bubu didn't have ample time to transfer.)

I don't think he drove anyone off, I just think he didn't baby players in the way that former stars of prep schools and big high schools are wanting.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

I think he was disingenuous about that. It wasn't that he didn't think Dougie was good enough for ISU, he thought ISU wasn't good enough for his kid. And he drove plenty of good kids and players right out of town, whatever he was doing.

Is it bad to punish your best player for not playing hard with extra running when he actually has a fractured foot that needed rest to heal? Can't imagine why players didn't love him!

And I think you're right on Doug. He had a foot out the door.

 

[Wesley]

I agree with every word of this. McD was far from a "sack of crap" (now, that's fine to describe Chizik) - he just wasn't a good fit in the Big 12. Plays a different style of ball, coaches a different style of kid.

That is too nice to Chizbang. He could not even crack a smile at the VEISHA parade intro.

 

[Angie]

McD just wanted to be a coach and go home at the end of the day. Fred is different, he wants to be one of the guys and enjoys being around them as much as possible. I don't think there's anything wrong with either approach.

Nobody else could have handled the coddling that Royce required though. Nobody.

I think you nailed it. I think that McDermott was used to handling kids with a more eager-to-please temperament, and he was a pretty matter-of-fact, boss-first-friend-last type of coach. Not a bad approach, and I get why he did it, but it just doesn't work when you're dealing with a team full of kids used to being treated like stars. You need to live and breathe these kids, and Hoiberg does that.

I'm thinking that was the rumor surrounding the departure of Wesley Johnson as well...that he was "yelled at too much". At the time, I felt that Wesley was wimping out. Now I'm not so sure, but that's water under the bridge.

I do think Wesley wanted to be treated like a star. I think he was a low prospect who was outperforming what was expected (and credit to the McD staff for recognizing that), but wanted to be TREATED like the star he was becoming.

I'm not saying that McD should still be here, or was a good fit, I just don't think he was a bad guy at all. He was just no-nonsense.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

See, I think he was being realistic. How would most people answer these two questions:

1. McDermott was having terrible seasons. His son was reputed at that time to be a mid-major prospect. What would you say if he recruited and gave a scholarship to his own son, rather than to a higher-rated prospect, when we didn't have a winning record? (Think Ferentz and his son in assisted housing.)

2. You're a coach, and you've been on the fence for the last few seasons. If you give your son a spot, and you get fired, you know his chance is gone, too. Would you give it to him, anyway, or encourage him to look at a more secure position? Or, look at it differently - you own a big company on the verge of bankruptcy and closure. Would you encourage your child to look at a smaller company that was growing/stable, or tell them to turn down all of those offers to sign on with your failing company? (And think about how ticked people are that Bubu didn't have ample time to transfer.)

I don't think he drove anyone off, I just think he didn't baby players in the way that former stars of prep schools and big high schools are wanting.

Difference between babying and managing personalities. Nobody would say Hoiberg babies players. The worst thing you can do is be unflinchingly rigid, have no prior success to point to for credibility, and to have no skill at managing egos and personalities on the team. McD hit all 3.

I'm sure he is a nice and great guy, but he was a crap coach for ISU and drove our program into the ground for 5 years.

 

[Luth4Cy]

McDermott is a good coach but the time wasn't right for him here. He's not a great recruiter, which he can get by with in weaker conferences but not the Big 12. I'd take Hoiberg over having Doug McDermott here. Remember that Doug didn't want to go here either, he was going to go to UNI.

 

[CycloneErik]

These are always good threads, since it gives people the chance to show that they refuse to get over the rough seasons, even when things are better for everybody.

 

[jburke]

I believe McD had more NBA players than Fred, if I'm not mistaken? Correct me if I'm wrong, but McD had Taylor, Brackins and Garrett (although we all know he's where he is because of Fred, but the talent was always there). Fred had Garrett and Royce. So arguably you could say McD did less with more NBA talent than Fred did with less.

I don't hate on McD. I liked the hire, his system just didn't work. I wish him all the success in the world, but I'm ecstatic we've got Fred. It was a winning situation for everyone.

You also forgot W Johnson, though he transferred at the end was later in the NBA. Though I also foresee Kane and maybe Ejim getting a look next year.

 

[carvers4math]

Is it bad to punish your best player for not playing hard with extra running when he actually has a fractured foot that needed rest to heal? Can't imagine why players didn't love him!

And I think you're right on Doug. He had a foot out the door.

That situation was just sick and I will not forgive him for that.

 

[bellzisu]

Greg McDermott at ISU

Iowa State:

59–68 (.465)

18–46 (.281)

Fred Hoiberg

Iowa State:

81–44 (.648)

33–31 (.516)

Next stupid topic please.

 

[Angie]

Difference between babying and managing personalities. Nobody would say Hoiberg babies players. The worst thing you can do is be unflinchingly rigid, have no prior success to point to for credibility, and to have no skill at managing egos and personalities on the team. McD hit all 3.

I'm sure he is a nice and great guy, but he was a crap coach for ISU and drove our program into the ground for 5 years.

Someone was babying Royce, that's for sure.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

I'm thinking that was the rumor surrounding the departure of Wesley Johnson as well...that he was "yelled at too much". At the time, I felt that Wesley was wimping out. Now I'm not so sure, but that's water under the bridge.

I can pretty much clarify at least a big reason he left. WJ had a fracture in his foot that was very painful and he was obviously not moving at 100%. McD punished him with extra running for this because X-rays didn't show anything. He assumed he was being lazy or whatever. WJ got a 2nd opinion and another doctor said to rest it and later found the fracture once the swelling went down, which had taken forever due to the extra running on top of regular practice.

 

[BryceC]

I agree 100%. Greg had some bad luck at ISU. Creighton taking him and us getting Hoiberg truly has been a win win for both schools. I'm happy for Greg and Creighton and I am ecstatic with where we are with Coach Hoiberg and ISU.

If the bad luck is your fault, does it cease to be bad luck? The guy sucked here, it was a crap hire, and the best result was we didn't have to cough up a buyout for firing him.

I couldn't care less about his success at creighton. The guy drove the program in the toilet and left it as a dumpster fire. I don't think it's possible to appreciate how good of a job hoiberg has done here considering the circumstances. I don't get still hating the guy but I don't get rooting for him and scolding those who don't wish him well or follow his career.

If my company hired a CEO that was horrible and went on to success somewhere else I certainly wouldn't be slapping him on the back either regardless of how nice a guy he is.

 

[roundball]

I feel bad for the person who wrote the original message, because the question was about which team and coach you'd rather have this year. That's actually an interesting topic, but it's getting drowned out by all of this McDermott bashing.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

Someone was babying Royce, that's for sure.

Babying is taking care of everything somebody needs and giving them and providing for them with no work from that person.

I think Fred had a mutual trust with Royce and that is why he succeeded. Royce didn't get in trouble, he flew when he didn't want to. He never betrayed his trust. So at the end of the year when Royce wanted to drive FH let him. And Royce responded well. He didn't demand to be driven or act like a baby at ISU. He and Fred had a mature professional relationship.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

People saying it doesn't matter and who cares since him leaving got us FH..... it was 5 years down the drain. And guess who applied for the job when Greg was hired? Fred Hoiberg. Not saying we could have possibly hired him then, but I think if we had we would even be better off now than were are. Or hired a competent coach who left and hired Hoiberg after.

Regardless, having success after McD left does not mean I care less about him driving ISU into the ground while he was here.

 

[Angie]

Babying is taking care of everything somebody needs and giving them and providing for them with no work from that person.

I think Fred had a mutual trust with Royce and that is why he succeeded. Royce didn't get in trouble, he flew when he didn't want to. He never betrayed his trust. So at the end of the year when Royce wanted to drive FH let him. And Royce responded well. He didn't demand to be driven or act like a baby at ISU. He and Fred had a mature professional relationship.

It depends on how you look at it. Royce was treated how he needed to be to be successful here, that's true. However - babying sets someone up to not succeed later on. I think that Royce expected everyone to accommodate him like ISU did, and nobody else in his career has. And we know how that worked out.

I don't think it was wrong to treat Royce as he was, but nobody can argue that it left him in a mindset that prepared him for the NBA. I'm not at all saying that McDermott should still be our coach, or that I don't love Freddy. I just don't think photos of McD should be burned in effigy. He was a nice, devoted guy, but it just didn't fit. He proved that pretty solidly, but luckily he moved on before we had to buy him out.