*** Official Iowa State Season Thread ***

[ISUChippewa]

You go ahead and die on a hill for what is starting to look like a coach of the worse season in Iowa State history.

Few things here;

#1) I never wrote I was going to "die on a hill" for Prohm. I've admitted tongue in cheek recently that I consider myself to be one of the founding members of the PDC (Prohm Defenders Club), but if you do a search of any of my recent posts on here you will find that I am completely on board with him being let go, resigning, whatever it takes to make sure we have a different coach next season.

#1b) I am defending that season. There is a difference. Are you going to argue that by historical ISU basketball standards that it was a bad season, underachieving or not?

#2) I am not going to be shamed by you or anyone else on here for taking some enjoyment out of a season in which we won a Big 12 Tournament, handed the national runner-up their only home loss, and won 23 games. If you want to do nothing but b!tch and whine about that same exact season and take absolutely no joy from it (which is exactly what you admitted to) than knock yourself out.

Anyway, I'm done arguing with you or whoever else about it. It's gotten to a point (and got to that point long ago actually), that the same arguments, debates, and discussions are being had and rehashed over and over and over again. It's gotten really old, and I am going to focus on new topics and discussions that are new and fresh.

I will cheer for the Cyclones for the rest of the season, and however the season ends up I will thank Steve Prohm for his accomplishments here and wish him the best of luck in whatever his future holds. I will look forward to seeing who is on the "short list" and enjoy discussing that list with other Cyclone fans. I will welcome whoever that next coach is and look forward to next season, even if it might be a huge rebuilding effort for the next couple of seasons.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Are you kidding me? That team went 9-9 in the Big 12 and lost in the first round. That team had three NBA players on the roster, one of which was a 1st rounder. He under achieved that year so hard it's not even funny. I don't look at that year as a positive anymore, I see it as a negative now that these guys are in the NBA.

Some of you are pretty big for your britches relative to the history of the program to declare a season where we made the NCAA tournament and won the Big 12 tournament a failure.

Underachieved? Maybe.

But this "OMG that season suxxx whole thing was trash" act you guys pull is preposterous. That season was, despite the 9-9 record in the Big 12, a very accomplished one relative to our history...

-- clowned Kansas in Hilton 77-60, and it wasn't as close as the score
-- only team to beat eventual national runner-up Texas Tech in Lubbock that year
-- beat an excellent Kansas State team (that split the regular season title with Tech) in Manhattan
-- clowned a ranked Mississippi team in Oxford
-- won the Big 12 tournament
-- made the NCAA tournament

That is one of the best seasons in program history. Period!

If "underachievement" is the only metric you guys want to use, then you really need to look at the 2015 team to direct your vitriol. Let me summarize its various disappointments...

-- had SIX eventual NBA players, many of which were experienced upperclassmen
-- the other two guys in the rotation (Hogue and McKay) won all-conference honors of various types and both went on to have successful overseas careers
-- compare that to the 2019 team, which had only THREE eventual NBA guys... one of which, Shayok, had a cup of coffee, and the other two (THT and Haliburton) were only true freshmen in Ames that year (and very young ones at that) and are only now, when they would have been juniors or seniors if they had stayed in college, starting to blossom into being successful, high-productivity players at the next level
-- controlled its own destiny to win the Big 12 with four games to go
-- pissed it all away after blowing late leads against Baylor and Kansas State, the former of which happened because Fred didn't call a timeout when Baylor started drilling three after three after three and the latter because they ****** up an inbound play, giving away a last second runout
-- UAB, I don't have to say more, the largest tournament failure in program history outside of Hampton

I never hear you guys ******** about that season when I hear you all clambering to bring Fred back. Face it, you all had it in for Prohm from day one, either for something about Prohm or him just being "not the Fred" and you'd still whine even had we brought Phil Jackson into Hilton.

Thing is, I actually feel bad for you all. You can't let go of the past, you can't let go of a coach who left us for greener ($$$) pastures, and your inability to move on from that is going to FOREVER rob you of any capability to enjoy our basketball program. The teams constructed by Prohm and his staff have had some accomplishments by Iowa State standards, and I enjoyed them, and I am going to look back on them and the young men Prohm coached into great Cyclones like Donovan "Big Shot" Jackson, Nick Weiler-Babb, Marial Shayok, Solomon Young, Lindell Wigginton, Talen Horton-Tucker, Tyrese Haliburton, and Rasir Bolton with happiness and pride. You all are just ideologically dedicated to hating everything that is not Fred.

The way you guys look at things, you're never going to be anything but disappointed. But you are at least about to get your way, because I don't see a way Prohm survives this now.

Prohm very well could make history for having the worst season on record. McDermott didn't have a great tenor here, but at least he didn't set records for having the worst season in history.

The McDermott teams never did ANYTHING of note except maybe this game...



https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2010-03-06-kansas-state.html

It took McDermott four years to get a win -- his only as a Cyclone -- over a ranked team.

Even the 2018 Prohm team had a few wins over ranked opponents, and the 2019 Prohm team probably had a half-dozen of them. I could go and look, but it was way greater than zero.

McDermott had four years of absolute ****. Throwing out the first two years of Prohm's tenure leaves you with a bad year, though one with more accomplishments than any McDermott team, a pretty good year, a bad year that was about equal to a McDermott team, and then absolute trash.

That blows McDermott out of the water for a four-year stretch of productivity.

If the only way you judge a coaches tenure is how it ended, then you're always going to be disappointed. Coaching tenures, like love, are only going to end in heartbreak or death/retirement.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

I was going to post something......but chipp and sig said it all. Bravo both of you!

 

[jpete24]

Are you going to argue that by historical ISU basketball standards that it was a bad season, underachieving or not?

Yes, this was not as good of season as it should have been seeing the talent we had. Great we won the Big 12 Tournament, I was there, had fun and enjoyed the victories all the same. But I think it's fair to look back and say that team underachieved. See my comments below to Sig regarding that team.

I consider myself to be one of the founding members of the PDC (Prohm Defenders Club)

Your complete post was derailed by your bias and this quote shows that you aren't going to look at this objectionably. If Prohm had a run of the mill season this year, I would argue all day for him to keep his job. But to say that he could have done more with the two years of Fred's guys, and the one year that he had three NBA players, I don't think that is unreasonable to say.

That is one of the best seasons in program history. Period!

This is the same team that lost 6 of the last 8 games going into the B12 tournament, including loses to a garbage Texas team, TCU twice and a lukewarm WVU team. Go back and look at the podcasts from CF and other posts ~ people were wondering what was going on in the locker room and rumors of player attitude issues. Do we not forget THT and MJ getting into it on the court that year? How about Lindell's constant attitude issues on and off the court after the injury? What about all the discipline issues with Lard? There were obviously some issues with this team that people tend to just overlook because they threw together three wins at the right time. I think that B12 tournament win basically saved Prohm's job for a couple more years, but the writing was on the wall. Prohm caught lightning in a bottle that year for for a couple great moments.

It took McDermott four years to get a win -- his only in Ames -- over a ranked team.

Agreed, McDermott was also digging out of crap that was left for him after everybody left when Wayne Morgan was let go. McDermott made his mistakes but it's odd that he was successful literally everywhere else but Iowa State. Hopefully the next coach can keep the talent here at Iowa State, otherwise Prohm is looking to be the next Wayne Morgan.....

I'm really not negative about Prohm, I wanted him to do well. I wish him the best, but this year is absolutely horrible. A decent coach should be able to X&O their way to at least a couple wins in the Big 12, and were about to lose all of them. I'm also not one to say we should just get Fred back or always comparing to Fred. Fred Hoiberg made his big boy decisions and we had to move on from that. I wouldn't take Fred back now obviously. He costs too much, and I think he's lost some of the shine that he had before getting punched in the gut at the Bulls.

Also remember, Prohm was Leath's guy and Pollard wanted TJ Otz, and we got Prohm, and Leath isn't even our president anymore (I think we remember Leath's judgement wasn't great either with the whole university airplane incident and issues).

 

[Sigmapolis]

@jpete24

We all know how that team ended that season -- as you said, backslide in February, rumors of a toxic locker room, before putting it together in Kansas City and falling just short to #11 Ohio State.

But you can't cherrypick one month (or even just a few weeks) of a long season in judging it. That team had some nice accomplishments. It's one of the better, top 10-15, in program history.

Could it have been more? Sure.

Did it have three NBA guys? Sure, but one of them has a career 11 points and 28 minutes in the NBA (Shayok) and the other two were 17-year old freshmen when they showed up to Ames that year.

Underachieved? Sure, probably. But you have to look at the totality of the evidence.

Back to the 2015 team...

SENIORS = 1 future NBA guy (Dejean-Jones) plus Hogue, who won all-Big 12 honorable mention
JUNIORS = 3 future NBA guys (Mitrou-Long, Nader, and Niang) plus McKay, who won Big 12 DPOTY
SOPHOMORES = 2 future NBA guys (Morris and Thomas), both of which had significant experience and playing time as freshmen before heading into their sophomore seasons

Total NBA minutes and points for those six...

Morris = 4,283 MP and 1,795 PTS
Nader = 2,244 MP and 809 PTS
Niang = 1,907 MP and 785 PTS
Thomas = 518 MP and 237 PTS
Dejean-Jones = 279 MP and 79 PTS
Mitrou-Long = 132 MP and 33 PTS

I will never understand why people want to complain about the 2019 team not winning the Big 12 regular season rather than the 2015 team. The 2015 team really should have been the year.

Special bonus content!

The 2015 team also had a weak February (4-4). They needed a miracle comeback against an excellent Oklahoma team in Hilton to avoid ending the season on a 1-3 skid, too. And they also had some reports of a toxic locker room. Dejean-Jones supposedly erupting at the halftime of the UAB game (rumored to have thrown some furniture) and then audibly cursing Hoiberg out on the TV broadcast while Matt A. and McKay try to restrain him... not a good look and not much good said about program and team chemistry right there.

The 2015 team has everything disliked about the 2019 team only 5x as much of it.

 

[NoCreativity]

Worse yet: that Big 12 title bought him an extension if I remember correctly, which is how we are in the mess we are today.

Exactly, the timing of that made no sense. We had just lost to Ohio St and everyone knew the team was about to be gutted, but he gets a vote of confidence like everyone was coming back the next year.

NWB and Shayok were obviously gone, everyone knew THT was going to the NBA, and everyone knew Prohm ran off Lindell and Lard. It made no sense at the time.

 

[quasistellar]

@jpete24

We all know how that team ended that season -- as you said, backslide in February, rumors of a toxic locker room, before putting it together in Kansas City and falling just short to #11 Ohio State.

But you can't cherrypick one month (or even just a few weeks) of a long season in judging it. That team had some nice accomplishments. It's one of the better, top 10-15, in program history.

Could it have been more? Sure.

Did it have three NBA guys? Sure, but one of them has a career 11 points and 28 minutes in the NBA (Shayok) and the other two were 17-year old freshmen when they showed up to Ames that year.

Underachieved? Sure, probably. But you have to look at the totality of the evidence.

Back to the 2015 team...

SENIORS = 1 future NBA guy (Dejean-Jones) plus Hogue, who won all-Big 12 honorable mention
JUNIORS = 3 future NBA guys (Mitrou-Long, Nader, and Niang) plus McKay, who won Big 12 DPOTY
SOPHOMORES = 2 future NBA guys (Morris and Thomas), both of which had significant experience and playing time as freshmen before heading into their sophomore seasons

Total NBA minutes and points for those six...

Morris = 4,283 MP and 1,795 PTS
Nader = 2,244 MP and 809 PTS
Niang = 1,907 MP and 785 PTS
Thomas = 518 MPT and 237 PTS
Dejean-Jones = 279 MP and 79 PTS
Mitrou-Long = 132 MP and 33 PTS

I will never understand why people want to complain about the 2019 team not winning the Big 12 regular season rather than the 2015 team. The 2015 team really should have been the year.

Special bonus content!

The 2015 team also had a weak February (4-4). They needed a miracle comeback against an excellent Oklahoma team in Hilton to avoid ending the season on a 1-3 skid, too. And they also had some reports of a toxic locker room. Dejean-Jones supposedly erupting at the halftime of the UAB game (rumored to have thrown some furniture) and then audibly cursing Hoiberg out on the TV broadcast while Matt A. and McKay try to restrain him... not a good look and not much good said about program and team chemistry right there.

The 2015 team has everything disliked about the 2019 team only 5x as much of it.

That comparison only holds up when they are compared in a vacuum.

2015 team trajectory was overall upward, they played some fun to watch bball. 2019 team was a blip and was really hard to enjoy watching due to really obvious mishandling of the players and team overall by the coach.

I was apprehensive at the time when we won the b12 tourney because it really felt like a fluke. Turns out it was a fluke, and it cost our program dearly in the long run.

So I'm sorry if it makes me a bad fan, but seeing the pictures of the b12 tourney win actually makes me upset rather than happy because it magnifies all that has gone wrong before and after.

Plus the posters on this site defending Prohm by posting those pics were OBNOXIOUS, so even more bad association there.

I'd personally rather never be reminded of that tourney for the rest of my life.

 

[NoCreativity]

I'm on record as defending that season as being a good one for ISU basketball when compared against the history of the basketball program, and I will die on that proverbial hill.

That being written, it would have been nice to have won at home against Baylor and TCU, or at least one of them. Even without Shayok that team also had no business losing the way they did at WVU.

OTOH, it was pretty cool to beat both of the conference co-champs on their own floors, as well as beat a pretty decent Ole Miss team on the road during the Big 12/SEC Challenge.

I'll agree we had some great moments that year, but anytime we did it would be followed by frustration. Win the Big 12 tournament then 3 days later look completely lost, smoke Kansas then lose to Kansas St at home a few days later because we couldn't make a free throw. Go down to Lubbock and beat a Final Four team, then lose to TCU.

Your main problem is you always want to compare eventing to "In the history of Iowa St basketball" as if what happened in the 80s with Orr has any bearing on whether we should be able to beat an 11 seed .

 

[NoCreativity]

I was apprehensive at the time when we won the b12 tourney because it really felt like a fluke. Turns out it was a fluke, and it cost our program dearly in the long run.

Don't forget we also got to play Kansas St in the semi-final without Dean Wade, the destruction of Kansas was great in the final though.

 

[BryceC]

"Bryce Landon"....his name sounds KU.

That hurts

 

[Rural]

Think how exciting three games in one week would be under "normal" circumstances.

 

[Statefan10]

Was at the game Saturday and finally got to see this team with my own eyes and I have to say, we are worse than advertised. There's just no discipline and Steve nor any assistant demands it. Something that I wanted to look for while watching was our physicality particularly on the glass. I counted 7-8 times where KU got a shot and our guys would instantly turn around and look and see if the ball went in or not, while KU players would crash the glass untouched and get an easy layup. There were countless times when the basket was made, but we did the same thing and would've given up a layup had they missed.

How those sorts of things are allowed to happen are beyond me. It's one thing when you go to box your guy out and the other guy just ends up getting the ball because of luck, the angle of the shot, etc. It's another thing when you flat out don't bother to box out / don't care. Any time an offense rebound is given up due to effort, their a$$ should be on the bench and someone else that actually gives a damn should play in their place.

And no Steve, we didn't play stellar defense. Kansas just had an off shooting night. We were giving up wide open threes like it was our job. Had they shot even 35% from the 3, they would've won by 20+ instead of 14.

I know I sound like a broken record but it's all just a waiting game at this point as far as Steve's fate goes.

 

[ISUChippewa]

I'll agree we had some great moments that year, but anytime we did it would be followed by frustration. Win the Big 12 tournament then 3 days later look completely lost, smoke Kansas then lose to Kansas St at home a few days later because we couldn't make a free throw. Go down to Lubbock and beat a Final Four team, then lose to TCU.

Your main problem is you always want to compare eventing to "In the history of Iowa St basketball" as if what happened in the 80s with Orr has any bearing on whether we should be able to beat an 11 seed .

You're right, the season long inconsistency from game to game was maddening.

But jers, it's not an issue of comparing everything to the Orr era; it's a matter of looking through the lens of perspective at ISU basketball program history and realizing that yes, the team may have underachieved compared to talent level, but compared against program history it was still a good season. Not a great season; it doesn't hold a candle to the '99-'00 Elite Eight team or the '14 S16 team, but it was still a solid season nonetheless.

And I know you and I disagree about this, so we'll have to leave it at that, but that '15 team damn sure should have been able to beat a 14 seed. As I've written before, my frustration comes from the fact that Prohm gets absolutely murdered by and you and others on here for losing to an #11 seed (not all that uncommon in the NCAA tournament, and remember from what we've been told, March happens), and Fred more or less gets a free pass for losing to a #14 seed (yeah, it sucks, but hey, March happens).

That's all I'll have to write about that. As I wrote earlier, I really want to move on from having the same arguments over and over again. Hopefully we can bring our best game to the Cowboys tomorrow afternoon and surprise everyone.

 

[awd4cy]

Don't forget we also got to play Kansas St in the semi-final without Dean Wade, the destruction of Kansas was great in the final though.

Yep, if Dean Wade was health, I don’t think we win that game.

 

[AuH2O]

Yes, this was not as good of season as it should have been seeing the talent we had. Great we won the Big 12 Tournament, I was there, had fun and enjoyed the victories all the same. But I think it's fair to look back and say that team underachieved. See my comments below to Sig regarding that team.


Your complete post was derailed by your bias and this quote shows that you aren't going to look at this objectionably. If Prohm had a run of the mill season this year, I would argue all day for him to keep his job. But to say that he could have done more with the two years of Fred's guys, and the one year that he had three NBA players, I don't think that is unreasonable to say.


This is the same team that lost 6 of the last 8 games going into the B12 tournament, including loses to a garbage Texas team, TCU twice and a lukewarm WVU team. Go back and look at the podcasts from CF and other posts ~ people were wondering what was going on in the locker room and rumors of player attitude issues. Do we not forget THT and MJ getting into it on the court that year? How about Lindell's constant attitude issues on and off the court after the injury? What about all the discipline issues with Lard? There were obviously some issues with this team that people tend to just overlook because they threw together three wins at the right time. I think that B12 tournament win basically saved Prohm's job for a couple more years, but the writing was on the wall. Prohm caught lightning in a bottle that year for for a couple great moments.


Agreed, McDermott was also digging out of crap that was left for him after everybody left when Wayne Morgan was let go. McDermott made his mistakes but it's odd that he was successful literally everywhere else but Iowa State. Hopefully the next coach can keep the talent here at Iowa State, otherwise Prohm is looking to be the next Wayne Morgan.....

I'm really not negative about Prohm, I wanted him to do well. I wish him the best, but this year is absolutely horrible. A decent coach should be able to X&O their way to at least a couple wins in the Big 12, and were about to lose all of them. I'm also not one to say we should just get Fred back or always comparing to Fred. Fred Hoiberg made his big boy decisions and we had to move on from that. I wouldn't take Fred back now obviously. He costs too much, and I think he's lost some of the shine that he had before getting punched in the gut at the Bulls.

Also remember, Prohm was Leath's guy and Pollard wanted TJ Otz, and we got Prohm, and Leath isn't even our president anymore (I think we remember Leath's judgement wasn't great either with the whole university airplane incident and issues).

The team with Shayok had some good talent, but THT was what you'd expect from a 17 year old freshman, and Haliburton was a really good role player. But getting a 6 seed with that team and being mad because THT and TH were future NBA players is like being pissed in 2011-12 that we got an 8 seed with a lottery pick in Royce, future NBA player Babb, and future Big 12 POY as a Soph. in Ejim. If you compare the rosters of the two teams, the 2011-12 probably had more experienced "win now" talent than the 2018-19 team.

Sure, that team with Shayok, Lindell, etc. wasn't as much fun for most of us than the 2011-12 team, but that probably had as much to do with one happening after a horrible stretch of ISU basketball, and the other coming off of the best long-term stretch of ISU basketball.

 

[NWICY]

Don't forget we also got to play Kansas St in the semi-final without Dean Wade, the destruction of Kansas was great in the final though.

Well maybe we would have won the national championship if Georges hadn't broken his foot. Injuries are a part of sports to discredit a win because of a injury on the other team gets to be old hat.

We all pretty much agree Prohm is a dead man walking regarding his tenure at ISU, but to try to discredit every win or good thing that happened in his time here is tiresome.

 

[Cycl1]

@jpete24

We all know how that team ended that season -- as you said, backslide in February, rumors of a toxic locker room, before putting it together in Kansas City and falling just short to #11 Ohio State.

But you can't cherrypick one month (or even just a few weeks) of a long season in judging it. That team had some nice accomplishments. It's one of the better, top 10-15, in program history.

Could it have been more? Sure.

Did it have three NBA guys? Sure, but one of them has a career 11 points and 28 minutes in the NBA (Shayok) and the other two were 17-year old freshmen when they showed up to Ames that year.

Underachieved? Sure, probably. But you have to look at the totality of the evidence.

Back to the 2015 team...

SENIORS = 1 future NBA guy (Dejean-Jones) plus Hogue, who won all-Big 12 honorable mention
JUNIORS = 3 future NBA guys (Mitrou-Long, Nader, and Niang) plus McKay, who won Big 12 DPOTY
SOPHOMORES = 2 future NBA guys (Morris and Thomas), both of which had significant experience and playing time as freshmen before heading into their sophomore seasons

Total NBA minutes and points for those six...

Morris = 4,283 MP and 1,795 PTS
Nader = 2,244 MP and 809 PTS
Niang = 1,907 MP and 785 PTS
Thomas = 518 MPT and 237 PTS
Dejean-Jones = 279 MP and 79 PTS
Mitrou-Long = 132 MP and 33 PTS

I will never understand why people want to complain about the 2019 team not winning the Big 12 regular season rather than the 2015 team. The 2015 team really should have been the year.

Special bonus content!

The 2015 team also had a weak February (4-4). They needed a miracle comeback against an excellent Oklahoma team in Hilton to avoid ending the season on a 1-3 skid, too. And they also had some reports of a toxic locker room. Dejean-Jones supposedly erupting at the halftime of the UAB game (rumored to have thrown some furniture) and then audibly cursing Hoiberg out on the TV broadcast while Matt A. and McKay try to restrain him... not a good look and not much good said about program and team chemistry right there.

The 2015 team has everything disliked about the 2019 team only 5x as much of it.

Why are people ******** about prohm and not hoiberg? Cause one is our coach and the other isn't. No one pretends that the loss to UAB was good. Context also matters. Hoiberg was a first time coach who had an under achieving season and left. Other than the one rebuild year, hoiberg made the tournament every year. His underachieving season is considered a good season but a rare darkspot in his coaching tenure. Prohm's underachieving season is a good season sandwhiched between 2 ******* seasons and is a bright spot that should be celebrated according to people on here. Prohms high point with his own players is hoibergs low.

 

[ChickenNuggetMan]

I think with regard to the 2019 season, it is about so much more than just looking at the raw numbers. That year, while from a raw record stand point, may have been better than the net average for ISU, was much more about emotions, both high and low, and perceived ability in my opinion.

While there were surely some fun moments that year like beating KU by 17, winning the B12 tourney (seemingly out of nowhere), and making it to the NCAAs, they were offset with lows like losing to the TOE by 14, WVU by 15, losing 6 of 8 leading up to the B12 tourney, and that pathetic loss to tOSU in the NCAAs.

I think a few other VERY important things occurred that year too. This was the year Prohm showed that even with his “good” teams, the home court advantage in Hilton that fans had come to know and love, was not going to be what it used to be. Additionally, Prohm absolutely lost control of the locker room situation, and it became toxic for the players. There were fights, Mike J injured his foot from kicking a door.

I was fully on board with Prohm’s coaching until that season. He showed he simply could not put players in the right positions to succeed, and couldn’t deal with the fallout of those on-court failures in the locker room.

This was a team that had the talent to do so much, if they were provided with the proper coaching and leadership. We ended up with a mediocre record and I believe the damage done in the locker room still haunts our team today

 

[jcisuclones]

Yep, if Dean Wade was health, I don’t think we win that game.

Had WVU not knocked off Texas Tech, I think they would’ve been in the championship over Kansas, and I couldn’t have seen us winning that game. Granted we were playing pretty hot at the moment, so who knows..

 

[Sigmapolis]

Yep, if Dean Wade was health, I don’t think we win that game.

Nobody docks the 2014 team for beating Kansas without Embiid in the B12 tournament.