I will always follow Iowa State basketball but I will most likely stop reading Cyclone Fanatic.
Behind Enemy Lines: Big 12
- Thread starter SolarGarlic
- Start date
I will always follow Iowa State basketball but I will most likely stop reading Cyclone Fanatic.
Disclaimer: I'm not a "Fred basher." I'm not at all connected with the program and just read things as I live out of state. This is a Cardinal-tinted outsider's perspective. I don't have strong feelings regarding Fred one way or the other.
I understand your frustration with people being angry that Fred left, but I don't think there is anything you can do about that. Some people felt betrayed when he left, right or wrong. They justified in their own minds that betrayal with different reasons and when doubt is cast on those reasons the emotions resurface for them. You aren't going to change those peoples' minds with logic because they are responding to their own emotions; they just need time to get past it.
From my limited understanding of things, I think some of the things Fred did were good in the short term but probably were not great things for the program long term. I think accountability is one area he struggled with which has caused some issues for him his last year here and this year with the transition. While he was here, I saw a couple times that he "didn't coach motivation." Combining that while he was here with the statements of some of the Bulls' players this year that he needs to "coach players harder" leads me to believe he relied largely on players holding each other accountable for their effort.
In my outside but expert opinion, that can work if you have the right group of players (both leaders and followers) and things go well for the most part. However, all it would take is a few guys who aren't doing the right things who don't respond well to the leadership of the other players on the team for it to get messy quickly. There are situations when a coach should use a more structured/strict style of accountability when the players need it to get better. Just depends on the individual players and circumstances.
I would guess that might also be one of the reasons why Fred had trouble keeping a long bench of active (i.e., non-redshirt & sitting out) players. It would be difficult to motivate and keep younger players engaged with the team and motivated to give their all in practice to improve when they see older players getting play in front of them who aren't giving it their all in practice and aren't being held accountable. Currently, we have Georges and Monte who are fantastic but if their effort and leadership isn't fully supported and reinforced by the head coach it can be difficult for them to hold their peers accountable. Fred had a lot of players transfer out, just like McD, but Fred for the most part was able to balance that out his first few years by getting really talented freshmen (like Georges, Monte, and Matt) and supplement them with incoming junior/senior transfers. He wasn't able to do that well the last year (maybe two) because everyone knew he was preparing to leave.
We'll see if Prohm is any better at those things than Fred was these next few years. Having so many influential players graduating and so little current game-ready depth might be a blessing in that it will provide plenty of potential minutes next year for Prohm to sell to players current and future if they buy in to his coaching process.
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To be honest I can't believe you have lasted this long. This place will give you a real warped sense of the fanbase.
From the Seth Davis piece, I am suprised by Cyclone fan outcry about McKay not practicing at times last year. I thought it was pretty clear that Fred took an NBA approach to coaching. I also felt he would turn a blind eye to some issues both on and off the court that a career college coach would not tolerate. Nothing wrong with Fred's approach, we had some great teams and victoies under his leadership. It amazes me some people like to tear other people down.
The bigger statement for me was other teams know we won't foul and take advantage of it. I think a lot of fans suspected that our guys try to avoid fouls at the expense of playing tough defense. With few exceptions our guys aren't physical. Our help defense is lacking.
As has been discussed widely, we lack depth so foul trouble can be a problem. If guys are playing 35-40 mpg, foul trouble is bound to happen. Does Coach Prohm need to take an unorthodox approach? Borrow from baseball and the concept of a pitch count. Should the staff limit minutes to get maximum performance in the minutes they play?
Monte and Matt - 34mpg. Abdel, Deonte and Georges - 30mpg. Jameel - 25mpg. That leaves 17 mpg for Ashton and Halice. Sure Ashton and Halice don't provide the offensive firepower as our starters, but I feel they are solid defenders. Limiting minutes might help avoid foul trouble and make us more effective at the end of games.
The bigger statement for me was other teams know we won't foul and take advantage of it. I think a lot of fans suspected that our guys try to avoid fouls at the expense of playing tough defense. With few exceptions our guys aren't physical. Our help defense is lacking.
As has been discussed widely, we lack depth so foul trouble can be a problem. If guys are playing 35-40 mpg, foul trouble is bound to happen. Does Coach Prohm need to take an unorthodox approach? Borrow from baseball and the concept of a pitch count. Should the staff limit minutes to get maximum performance in the minutes they play?
Monte and Matt - 34mpg. Abdel, Deonte and Georges - 30mpg. Jameel - 25mpg. That leaves 17 mpg for Ashton and Halice. Sure Ashton and Halice don't provide the offensive firepower as our starters, but I feel they are solid defenders. Limiting minutes might help avoid foul trouble and make us more effective at the end of games.
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I'm thankful and greatful for the time Fred was here. Great memories. But my loyalty is with the Clones, not Fred. You are right, life isn't fair. People leave good jobs for better jobs all the time. If I was a shareholder of a company and our star CEO left for another company, I wouldn't hate him or blame him, but I sure as hell wouldn't invite him to my next Christmas party, especially when I find out he left certain departments in shambles. As much as Fred has the right to do what's best for him, I have the right as a fan to no longer be his fan. People aren't fair either.
What does this even mean? You think every NBA coach is just fine with players skipping practice? I'm sure some are, but I'm sure there are plenty that aren't. You think Pop is just fine with it if one of his players doesn't feel like showing up to practice? I don't know if he is, but I kinda doubt it.
Like I said earlier and I have no inside information, so maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like it kind of was a he was sore or needed some extra rest type of thing. I don't think Fred let him stay home and play 2K or anything. I don't particularly like the NBA, but from what I do know Pop seems like he would be fine if Duncan said he was sore and couldn't practice much today.
And I'm sure there are college coaches that will give players a rest from practice if they need it. Prohm said on the radio they don't really even have much in the way of physical practice this time of year. It's mostly scouting and film review. Fred would say the same type of things. Again, this idea of an NBA style just doesn't fly with me. I think what that means is Fred didn't want to be a disciplinarian and baby sitter. If that is the case then that's fine. I don't blame him. But some guys are going to take advantage of that.
You appear to have considerable experience in this situation. Please tell us more.
Where have you been? Pop goes a step further and doesn't require healthy players to show up for GAMES!!! Why, to get the maximum performance out of his players at playoff time.
The college basketball season can be long and obviously this wasn't an issue for Hoiberg as McKay wasn't suspended. I can easily see where Fred viewed McKay being fresh for games more important than being at every practice.
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Yes he gives his veterans rest in a very long NBA season. Probably against their own wishes at times. That's not the same thing as players not practicing when they are expected too.
The rest of it I addressed in my response above.
Looks like it was the right call by Fred. he was way more productive and less hurt last year than this year. Mckay went balls to the walls in games last year. Our center was the first down the floor basically both ways last year. Bet he was tired and worn out.
If Monte is smart and stays ISU has potential to have a nice backcourt next year. Burton will be undersized but could be underrated down low, and then if someone else is serviceable, that's not a bad starting 5. Depth will still be a thing but that's not exactly new at ISU historically as it is.
I'm looking forward to next year even more just because there's a chance for more positive surprises/upswing.
Then maybe prohm should be recruiting. Fred was left with a bare bones program and in year 2 won more big 12 games than prohm probably will in year 1 with preseason top 10 team, and fred had to sell players on coming to ISU after years of sucking ***. Prohm can say 2nd in 25 wins in the nation, 3rd in the nation for weeks ranked.
There is a cap on the max number of hours teams can practice in college. There isn't in the NBA. And the absolute WORST game schedule you could have this time a year now that ISU has no more Big Monday games is 2 games in four days. There are many times in the NBA where they play 3 games in 4 days. Teams cannot afford to have healthy players sit out cause they don't feel like going.
Very very true statement. I just wish people would take that into account for BOTH Fred Hoiberg, AND Steve Prohm.
Pop purposefully sits his star players entire games so they can be rested. You think he gives a **** about a player resting during a practice if they are tired?
You think he is OK with players who are expected to play in games skipping practice? I all ready responded to a similar post. Can you not read?
