Michigan

[cyfanatic13]

I don't really get why a lot of folks are thinking this isn't a big deal? Like in many sports, stealing signs is part of the game and I totally get that. If you can interpret it on the fly in game or pick up on it watching tape, sure go for it. And whether it's "wrong" or not, this seems pretty cut and dried as being explictly against NCAA rules. All you have to do is look to the NFL and spygate for how serious leagues would/should take videotaping of opposing team signals and that was just in game.

Also, it's clearly a coordinated effort that had to be funded/directed from up top in that program. Misconception it seems like that some have is that this guy was flying around to these games. They've said he was buying all the tickets and transferring to several different people who were then recording games. Not only are tickets to these types of games expensive, they're particularly expensive in the areas noted (mid-field just high enough up for a good sideline few). Plus flights, hotels, lodging, etc. for people across the country. Not going to buy into the "he's just a super fan trying to help" BS.

Harbaugh will just bounce to the NFL problem and never come back to the NCAA which is fine for him. I'd think NCAA comes down pretty signifcantly though from a sporting integrity standpoint, especially with Michigan already having recent NCAA issues.

Exactly. Whether you think this does or doesn’t give them a big advantage isn’t even the point. They blatantly broke a rule. The NCAA pretty clearly states that sign stealing the legal way is perfectly acceptable. Going to games and recording team’s signals isn’t acceptable

 

[CoachHines3]

Exactly. Whether you think this does or doesn’t give them a big advantage isn’t even the point. They blatantly broke a rule. The NCAA pretty clearly states that sign stealing the legal way is perfectly acceptable. Going to games and recording team’s signals isn’t acceptable

yeah well we've seen a sh*t ton of ncaa mens basketball programs "break rules" and what has happened to them?

diddly squat.

 

[cyfanatic13]

Also being on the sidelines for four years at ISU and coaching for the last six for high school, I would also majorly disagree with this not being a big advantage. You can scout all you want and have a good idea of what’s coming, but none of that compares to literally knowing what play is coming. I say that with also saying that if teams knew of it ahead of time, they are morons for not changing their signals up

 

[3TrueFans]

im not denying they broke the rules.

im saying this isn't as big as an advantage as everyone is making it out to be.

How small though? You can definitely get more information by watching the sideline play callers, their signals, interactions and player movements for 60 minutes rather than whatever tidbits end up on the broadcast camera.

Regardless, cheating is cheating. People should be against cheating.

 

[Tre4ISU]

Yeah Michigan fans are in no way puckering right now. This is most likely not going anywhere until after the season. There also isn’t even a designated punishment for this kind of thing. Gonna be a slap on the wrist at best. Only possible concern is this is the final straw for Harbaugh and he takes an NFL job.

Some Walmart wolverines might be panicking but they don’t count.

I kind of think this will be the case. I used to think this stuff just kept him going because he wants to "win" the battle but at this point I think he probably just throws his hands up and leaves. Interestingly, this is probably the worst thing that's happened there and they deserve this entire investigation but between the satellite camp thing and the COVID recruiting stuff all while what Michigan would consider their competition was blatantly paying players and holding practice/workouts when they weren't supposed to during COVID.

Unless there is shown to be direct payment from higher end Michigan staff, I don't see how the NCAA can make a severe punishment here considering they haven't done that with coaches on record talking about personally paying players and it's a rule they've considered getting rid of because in their words it's not a great competitive advantage (I disagree). I think there's probably a pretty hefty fine and some probation at this point.

What I don't really love is that if everyone was investigated I bet you'd find a lot more of this type of thing going on. I think every program has a guy with this role in every program and it's long been rumored that Ryan Day focuses hard on getting signals. Hell, he had all of Michigans in 2018 and 2019 and now he's supposedly the one crying about it. Cheating is cheating and I get that but these guys going to the NCAA about Michigan better be pretty damn clean because if there's something to find, someone is going to find it.

At the end of the day, though, this will just lead to a quick change of rules where they will adopt NFL-style comms and it's just another great thing Jim Harbaugh has done for college football.

 

[Tre4ISU]

Also being on the sidelines for four years at ISU and coaching for the last six for high school, I would also majorly disagree with this not being a big advantage. You can scout all you want and have a good idea of what’s coming, but none of that compares to literally knowing what play is coming. I say that with also saying that if teams knew of it ahead of time, they are morons for not changing their signals up

It's insane to me that it's not common practice to change up signals every week. I can't even imagine not doing that.

I'd also say it should be pretty damn easy to figure it out pretty early in the game too. One team that's been a bit notorious for it was Northwestern and if you went back and watched games you could tell whose they had because of how their LBs would line up and activate/drop against PA or a run. Those dudes were not guessing.

 

[CoachHines3]

FWIW this was interesting

Tennessee Fan Casually Uncovers Michigan Scouting Scheme On Message Board In 2022

A Tennessee message board poster 'ArniePalmerAlert' provided the info about Michigan's Connor Stalions, almost a year ago.

www.outkick.com

 

[Tre4ISU]

FWIW this was interesting

Tennessee Fan Casually Uncovers Michigan Scouting Scheme On Message Board In 2022

A Tennessee message board poster 'ArniePalmerAlert' provided the info about Michigan's Connor Stalions, almost a year ago.

www.outkick.com

I believe you can pre-scout, in person, NCAA Championship opponents but I could be wrong there.

 

[CloneLawman]

FWIW this was interesting

Tennessee Fan Casually Uncovers Michigan Scouting Scheme On Message Board In 2022

A Tennessee message board poster 'ArniePalmerAlert' provided the info about Michigan's Connor Stalions, almost a year ago.

www.outkick.com

You know, I've heard tell that there are an awful lot of violations of various things going down in Iowa City. It would be a shame if someone in authority saw this e-mail and started crawling all over the Ferentz regime. Just terrible!

 

[RonBurgundy]

Unless there is shown to be direct payment from higher end Michigan staff, I don't see how the NCAA can make a severe punishment here considering they haven't done that with coaches on record talking about personally paying players and it's a rule they've considered getting rid of because in their words it's not a great competitive advantage (I disagree). I think there's probably a pretty hefty fine and some probation at this point.

I think the difference here might be the "injured" party. When KU cheated and got a top recruits before NIL, it was hard to demonstrate who had been injured. Put another way, it was not like ISU was complaining to the NCAA or Big 12.

Here, it is hard to imagine that Ohio State, Penn State, etc will simply stand by and do nothing. Have to imagine there are powerful schools that are going to be severely ticked off and won't stay silent or let Michigan get away with no punishment.

 

[MartyFine]

 

[FriendlySpartan]

Supports the insane super fan that just wants to be involved with the program theory

 

[legi]

What is the obvious, significant gain? I don't think they made back to back playoffs because they had some dude attending other games, Im sorry.

Michigan is good. They aren't blowing out teams because they know what they're doing every single play.

I said, Michigan clearly has gone to greater lengths than other schools to get an advantage and I get that per the NCAA it's illegal to scout this way.

I still don't buy this narrative that it gave them this huge advantage.

I don't know what the significant gain is specifically. Maybe instead of beating teams by 40 points it would be by 10 points.

You tell me then, why are they doing it at all? Go through all the trouble to gain some small advantage? Unlikely.

 

[Tre4ISU]

I think the difference here might be the "injured" party. When KU cheated and got a top recruits before NIL, it was hard to demonstrate who had been injured. Put another way, it was not like ISU was complaining to the NCAA or Big 12.

Here, it is hard to imagine that Ohio State, Penn State, etc will simply stand by and do nothing. Have to imagine there are powerful schools that are going to be severely ticked off and won't stay silent or let Michigan get away with no punishment.

Sure, but like I said, you better be ******* clean. Harbaugh has already called out day on a conference call for practicing when they weren't supposed to be. If you're going to be a narc, the house better be in order and I just really don't think that the top end college football programs are playing by all the rules. I mean, we know they're not, but the people in that industry know more than we do. It's an honor amongst thieves sort of deal and once that's all broken, especially for a guy who isn't part of some greater college football coaching fraternity, it's all free game.

I also understand your point but I don't know that "we know it hurt these teams" and "we know it made them a better team" is a compelling point. The NCAA can't be all like "cheating is cheating" in one scenario and not the other. That phrase inherently gives zero leeway and currently, even though we all knew this is how it'd work, pay for play is being used all over while against the rules, not to mention the spirit of the rules.

At the end of the day the punishment here comes down to the NCAA being a feckless, inconsistent, money grab for a few people who have basically zero way of defending any decision they make. Hammer Michigan? Ok, what are you going to do about X, Y, and Z and why wasn't Q punished for a literal FBI investigation that found wrongdoing. Don't do much of anything against UM because a link couldn't be drawn to anyone in leadership and the buck stopped with Pony Boy? What the hell? They were gaining an advantage. That's why, IMO the easiest way out for them is a fine and probation. They get more money, Michigan is happy because not materially happened and while OSU and MSU aren't happy (they won't be unless Harbaugh is given a 15 year show-cause) everyone else is largely fine with it.

 

[3TrueFans]

Supports the insane super fan that just wants to be involved with the program theory

*was involved with the program

 

[Tre4ISU]

I don't know what the significant gain is specifically. Maybe instead of beating teams by 40 points it would be by 10 points.

You tell me then, why are they doing it at all?

Well, I think it's obvious if it was just Stalions. He's making himself valuable. If it's the whole program, I don't really know. It was reported Day changed his signals for the game last year and MSU was running plays in last week.

 

[FriendlySpartan]

I don't know what the significant gain is specifically. Maybe instead of beating teams by 40 points it would be by 10 points.

You tell me then, why are they doing it at all? Go through all the trouble to gain some small advantage? Unlikely.

Here’s the sticking point to me “they” might not be doing it. If it’s this guy who came up to the team and has talked about a way to get signs/insight via video like the SI article mentioned then the program might not know he was stealing signs. The guy is very low level staffer trying to work his way into and up in the program because he is a super fan. Considering Michigan’s awful background check on Shemmy this summer it sadly wouldn’t surprise me if they took this guys statement at face value being a Navy grad, veteran, and die hard fan.

 

[CycloneErik]

I hate that NCAA hasn't adopted 2 really easy things.

1 - Reviews from booth or offsite rather than taking forever coordinating on the field with the mini monitor they have.

2 - Moving to headset communication. The stupid signs and curtains on the sidelines to call in plays should have ended a decade ago.

On 2, then we can talk about hacking and intercepting radio signals. That will be a nice, new touch.

 

[legi]

Well, I think it's obvious if it was just Stalions. He's making himself valuable. If it's the whole program, I don't really know. It was reported Day changed his signals for the game last year and MSU was running plays in last week.

So Stalions is doing all of this on his own, and then providing all of this info on the sidelines to the coaches, yet nobody is asking how in the world is he getting all of this info. They are just blindly accepting it because they trust that Stalions is the smartest and most trustworthy guy in all of CFB?

 

[FriendlySpartan]

So Stalions is doing all of this on his own, and then providing all of this info on the sidelines to the coaches, yet nobody is asking how in the world is he getting all of this info. They are just blindly accepting it because they trust that Stalions is the smartest and most trustworthy guy in all of CFB?

He said he figured it out from watching the game film on tv, it’s in the SI article from his text messages. If that’s what he told the coaches that makes a lot of sense.