Rhoads vs McCarney

[SpunOut]

What was ISU's record before and after that big JUCO recruiting class? Do you know?



:skeptical:

I think that Mac was the perfect hire at the time. He drug ISU FB from terrible to mediocre by the bootstraps. He had a couple of things that doomed him. First, he was not able to keep his best assistants. Loney being a prime example. He had a first class OC/OL coach and when Loney left, his replacement was subpar. And then Hoener's replacement was worse yet.

But McCarney's bigger problem was recruiting. He was never able to build depth. He took multiple kids that should have ended up at UNI. And when the season wore on and injuries piled up, the players that were on the field weren't Big 12 players. That lead to 4th quarter collapses and beat downs by any really good teams they played. I'll also say that one particular recruiting decision really killed Mac. In one year, they signed something like 7 HS OLs and the best (Marcel Howard) was a walk-on in addition to those 7. The next few years, because of that big class, they hardly signed any HS OLs. Then, when that class graduated, they had no depth and had to sign a bunch of JUCOs. That was a disaster and it lead to Seneca running for his life and Bret Meyer getting beat senseless. ISU had pretty much zero running game from 2002 to 2008 and that was a direct result of McCarney's recruiting decision back in 1998.

 

[cyfan15]

I'm happy that ISU has been fortunate enough to have both. Not very many coaches could have done what Mac did here. He inherited a BAD program that was arguably at it's lowest point ever, and then he made the program respectable by beating our biggest rival and getting to a bowl regularly. Iowa State football might not have even had enough interest for this website to exist if not for Mac's efforts.

That said, Mac's system was only going to take us so far. The 2004 and 2005 seasons were strong evidence of that, and the set back in 2006 showed us we were in danger of losing the positive momentum.

Chizik wasn't the right fit for this job, but he laid the necessary groundwork for some of the things that have helped Rhoads move the program forward. Chizik was willing to play his back-ups and try to develop some depth. He also recruited some talented players. He had the right attitude and some good ideas, but he wasn't competent enough to translate it to success at Iowa State.

Rhoads is the perfect coach for the Cyclones, IMO. He has the patience and passion of McCarney, Chizik's ambition (but without a sense of entitlement), as well as competency surpassing both of them. In just three seasons, he has already done great things. He definitely has us on the right track and I'm VERY excited to see what we will do in the future.

 

[ISUtamu]

E. Iowa

I really thought you would go a different route here. To me the Iowa point is not recruiting in the state but beating the Hawks on the field therefor being relevant in the state. Dan turned the outlook on the Iowa game around, we had not beat them since 1982 and during his time here he beat them 6 times with 5 in a row at one point.

 

[SNEDDS3]

The thing that's always jumped out at me was the lack of interest around the country toward Mac when it came to coaching vacancies. For someone that helped turn a losing program around he illicited no interest at all from AD's looking to fill HC positions. In his short tenure, Rhoads has been mentioned several times as a possible candidate for openings. I realize a lot of speculation is created by the media and message boards, but Mac never created any buzz like Rhoads does.

I also think Mac's generic game plans and predictable offense were part of his downfall as well. One reason I'm really excited about Cyclone football right now is Rhoads's "gunslinger" mentality. He's not afraid to take a chance and put all his chips on the table. Something you never got from McCarney.

Run it up the middle 3 times and punt is not a resume builder.

I agree.

 

[burn587]

Basically the main difference to note between the two is that CPR walks around with a pair of medicine balls in his pants and Mac had peanuts. If Mac would've taken a chance and played aggressively every once in a while we would've been in at least one big 12 championship game.

 

[Cycsk]

Pardon my ignorance, but who is Marty Fine? On Wiki, it says he is a head coach for Bryant University. What does he have to do with Iowa State? He sounds like someone I should know. And maybe I do, but am just have a momentary memory lapse.

 

[bosco]

Pardon my ignorance, but who is Marty Fine? On Wiki, it says he is a head coach for Bryant University. What does he have to do with Iowa State? He sounds like someone I should know. And maybe I do, but am just have a momentary memory lapse.

He has a violent history against Easter eggs.

 

[Cycsk]

He has a violent history against Easter eggs.

When I read the OP's reference to Marty Fine, I first thought of Marty Tirrell!

And I have no idea whether having "a violent history against Easter eggs" is a compliment, an ethnic slur, a religious insult, a red herring, or just something to make me feel even more ignorant.

 

[rainbowdolphin]

[FONT=&quot]12 Rhoads vis a vis McCarney[/FONT]​

I would have to be the first to admit that I was a Dan McCarney fan when he was here. I thought that he had the loyalty and dedication to get the job done. Even to the last moment,. I argued for him to keep his job. Well, it turns out that I was wrong. In retrospect, it’s clear that recruiting had gone south on him. There was no last minute surge left in the tank—not any more than after Jim Walden had been here a few years. And how recruiting had soured on McCarney is only magnified by the recruits that both his immediate successor and Paul Rhoads have continued to bring in.

Yet that isn’t the only contrast, wasn’t Mac’s only weakness, and given that Rhoads is in many ways in the same mold as Dan McCarney, I thought I’d take a look at those areas, and see what we might find. After all, while the disease that killed McCarney’s tenure—not enough wins—is clear, so are the symptoms that brought that disease about.

A. Offensive Line
Mac: Coach McCarney got lucky when he first started out, in that he had a great offensive line coach who could patch together a quality line out of disparate odds and ends—a JUCO transfer here, a converted defensive lineman there, and an overlooked Iowa kid materializing off the bench. As such, it’s my impression that he didn’t put a whole lot of effort into recruiting offensive linemen, figuring that he could focus scant resources on improving the team elsewhere, and continue to have competent lines constructed from recruiting odds and ends. To say that he was mistaken would be…an understatement. The great offensive line coach moved in to greener pastures, and his successor proved to plumb depths from which the unit has still not recovered. Horrible lines made good skill position players (not to mention defenses) the next thing to useless.

Rhoads: The “Tweener†coach left him some valuable parts, but starting with his second class, recruiting efforts really started to kick into gear. He might (might!) not yet have signed a Osemele, Carpenter or Haughton, but CPR’s OL recruits get into school, and stay there. And beginning with Lichtenberg, working through Farniok, Gannon, Omoile and etcetera, there is an athleticism that McCarney’s kids lost. It’s apparent that he and Bill Bleil spend time being selective in the offensive linemen that they recruit.


B. Placekicking
Mac:This is an easy one, since placekicking has become synonymous with futility in Ames. Well, that wasn’t always the case, as names like Stewart and Kohl should suggest, without going any further into the past. Some people think that Mac simply couldn’t—or didn’t—recruit place kickers, the truth is something else. McCarney was simply snakebitten, when it came to kickers. One after another would sign, only to be injured before they could contribute. The last of the series, Chris Mahoski, blew out a knee playing soccer mere weeks after Signing Day. For that matter, Coach Mac even had a commitment from an NFL kicker—before the hometown Hawkeyes opened up the vaults and offered a scholarship.

Rhoads: As counterpoint, the first thing Mac’s immediate successor did was upon rolling into town was to sign two placekickers. Paul Rhoads’ own statement rides upon Cole Netten.

C. Marty Fine
Mac: I could well have entitled this one “Loyaltyâ€, but loyalty is supposed to be a strength. Instead, this category might point to something deeper, an inability to accurately evaluate talent—whether regarding players or coaches. Sure, on the face of it, Fine had an impressive resume. His lines at Indiana had paved the way for Antwaan Randle-El and another thousand yard rusher. Turns out, Randle-El must have made those yards solely on his own ability. A decade later, repercussions from Fine’s disastrous tenure are still being felt. And Mac didn’t recognize the problem, or deal with it, until it was fatally too late.

Rhoads: Here we get tricky, because I can guess a couple of names that some people might throw out as CPR’s Marty Fine. However, no one has had that incredibly negative an impact in both coaching and recruiting. Not even close. The counterpoint here is twofold. First, CPR has hired good coaches across the board—and when he loses some, he finds good replacements. Courtney Messingham seems further evidence. He’s worked his way up from tight ends coach to coordinator. The second counterpoint being that CPR evaluates talent well—in both coaches and recruits. The number of “sleepersâ€, of gems in the rough that his staff has somehow identified and signed is practically jaw dropping.

D. Impatience
Mac: Following a landmark Insight.com Bowl win, Coach McCarney made a decision that crucially failed him in two ways, essentially dooming his tenure. He wouldn’t recover from it. Honestly, with success unprecedented for two decades, it must have been clear that his program was poised for greater things. Fresh from the publicity of a bowl win in dramatic fashion, over a name opponent, Mac could have gone out and signed a solid core of high school recruits. Okay, so maybe the program would have suffered from youth for a year or so, while those kids worked in. Instead, Mac opted for the “quick fix†and signed a passel of JC players—double digit numbers, the majority of the class. Rather than establishing a foundation for future success, he opted for a patch—and then many of those players didn’t make it into school. And even fewer became contributors. A fatal stab for the program.

Rhoads:
Despite a succession of “landmark winsâ€, CPR has refused to go for the massive “quick fixâ€. Indeed, when he has reached for a “damn good playerâ€, it has been the Gary Simons, D’Vario Montgomerys, and Duaron Williamses that he’s been hot after. The talented high school players. No urge to load up on endless JC players—and of that handful he did sign last year, two have more than two years of eligibility remaining.

E. Iowa
Mac: I hesitate to add this one to the mix, but under McCarney’s tenure it was a clear issue, and resultingly, a clear problem. It seemed as if every year, in and out, Mac signed a handful of Iowa kids who were never going to contribute. They simply didn’t have the athleticism for major college football. Essentially, a certain percentage of the roster was deadwood, players who were on the practice squad, but merely absorbed a scholarship for four or five years without making any apparent contribution. Almost as if he was filling a quota. And when you only have eighty-five scholarships in the first place, shaving off another ten to fifteen is only hamstringing yourself. Now, I might have considered this simply a suspicion of mine, but when I asked one of Mac’s players about that situation, I was taken aback. After having been forthcoming on a number of subjects, all of a sudden he clammed up. “We’re not allowed to talk about it,†was all he said.

Rhoads: I find it interesting how some people lambast CPR’s predecessor for “ignoring†Iowa recruits—and yet he still brought in some good Iowa kids. In Paul Rhoads case, he has been both selective and productive. I don’t really see any “deadwood†in his classes. Matter of fact, the biggest instate “reach†in the last signing class had to have been either Collin Bevins or Kane Seeley—and both of those guys have sterling “athleticism†credentials.

That’s it for now, folks. And while I am sure that Paul Rhoads has his own flaws—though I am as yet uncertain as to what they are—it does appear that he is making an effort not to repeat the mistakes of his one-time mentor. And doing a bangup job of it as well!

Well done! Thanks for taking the time to put done your thoughts.

 

[cyfan15]

Pardon my ignorance, but who is Marty Fine? On Wiki, it says he is a head coach for Bryant University. What does he have to do with Iowa State? He sounds like someone I should know. And maybe I do, but am just have a momentary memory lapse.

Fine was Mac's OL coach in 2002 and 2003. His recruiting and coaching failures played a huge role in Mac's eventual "resignation". Both Fine and OC/QB coach Steve Brickey were fired after the 2003 debacle.

 

[woodie]

[FONT=&quot]12 Rhoads vis a vis McCarney[/FONT]​

I would have to be the first to admit that I was a Dan McCarney fan when he was here. I thought that he had the loyalty and dedication to get the job done. Even to the last moment,. I argued for him to keep his job. Well, it turns out that I was wrong. In retrospect, it’s clear that recruiting had gone south on him. There was no last minute surge left in the tank—not any more than after Jim Walden had been here a few years. And how recruiting had soured on McCarney is only magnified by the recruits that both his immediate successor and Paul Rhoads have continued to bring in.

Yet that isn’t the only contrast, wasn’t Mac’s only weakness, and given that Rhoads is in many ways in the same mold as Dan McCarney, I thought I’d take a look at those areas, and see what we might find. After all, while the disease that killed McCarney’s tenure—not enough wins—is clear, so are the symptoms that brought that disease about.

A. Offensive Line
Mac: Coach McCarney got lucky when he first started out, in that he had a great offensive line coach who could patch together a quality line out of disparate odds and ends—a JUCO transfer here, a converted defensive lineman there, and an overlooked Iowa kid materializing off the bench. As such, it’s my impression that he didn’t put a whole lot of effort into recruiting offensive linemen, figuring that he could focus scant resources on improving the team elsewhere, and continue to have competent lines constructed from recruiting odds and ends. To say that he was mistaken would be…an understatement. The great offensive line coach moved in to greener pastures, and his successor proved to plumb depths from which the unit has still not recovered. Horrible lines made good skill position players (not to mention defenses) the next thing to useless.

Rhoads: The “Tweener†coach left him some valuable parts, but starting with his second class, recruiting efforts really started to kick into gear. He might (might!) not yet have signed a Osemele, Carpenter or Haughton, but CPR’s OL recruits get into school, and stay there. And beginning with Lichtenberg, working through Farniok, Gannon, Omoile and etcetera, there is an athleticism that McCarney’s kids lost. It’s apparent that he and Bill Bleil spend time being selective in the offensive linemen that they recruit.


B. Placekicking
Mac:This is an easy one, since placekicking has become synonymous with futility in Ames. Well, that wasn’t always the case, as names like Stewart and Kohl should suggest, without going any further into the past. Some people think that Mac simply couldn’t—or didn’t—recruit place kickers, the truth is something else. McCarney was simply snakebitten, when it came to kickers. One after another would sign, only to be injured before they could contribute. The last of the series, Chris Mahoski, blew out a knee playing soccer mere weeks after Signing Day. For that matter, Coach Mac even had a commitment from an NFL kicker—before the hometown Hawkeyes opened up the vaults and offered a scholarship.

Rhoads: As counterpoint, the first thing Mac’s immediate successor did was upon rolling into town was to sign two placekickers. Paul Rhoads’ own statement rides upon Cole Netten.

C. Marty Fine
Mac: I could well have entitled this one “Loyaltyâ€, but loyalty is supposed to be a strength. Instead, this category might point to something deeper, an inability to accurately evaluate talent—whether regarding players or coaches. Sure, on the face of it, Fine had an impressive resume. His lines at Indiana had paved the way for Antwaan Randle-El and another thousand yard rusher. Turns out, Randle-El must have made those yards solely on his own ability. A decade later, repercussions from Fine’s disastrous tenure are still being felt. And Mac didn’t recognize the problem, or deal with it, until it was fatally too late.

Rhoads: Here we get tricky, because I can guess a couple of names that some people might throw out as CPR’s Marty Fine. However, no one has had that incredibly negative an impact in both coaching and recruiting. Not even close. The counterpoint here is twofold. First, CPR has hired good coaches across the board—and when he loses some, he finds good replacements. Courtney Messingham seems further evidence. He’s worked his way up from tight ends coach to coordinator. The second counterpoint being that CPR evaluates talent well—in both coaches and recruits. The number of “sleepersâ€, of gems in the rough that his staff has somehow identified and signed is practically jaw dropping.

D. Impatience
Mac: Following a landmark Insight.com Bowl win, Coach McCarney made a decision that crucially failed him in two ways, essentially dooming his tenure. He wouldn’t recover from it. Honestly, with success unprecedented for two decades, it must have been clear that his program was poised for greater things. Fresh from the publicity of a bowl win in dramatic fashion, over a name opponent, Mac could have gone out and signed a solid core of high school recruits. Okay, so maybe the program would have suffered from youth for a year or so, while those kids worked in. Instead, Mac opted for the “quick fix†and signed a passel of JC players—double digit numbers, the majority of the class. Rather than establishing a foundation for future success, he opted for a patch—and then many of those players didn’t make it into school. And even fewer became contributors. A fatal stab for the program.

Rhoads:
Despite a succession of “landmark winsâ€, CPR has refused to go for the massive “quick fixâ€. Indeed, when he has reached for a “damn good playerâ€, it has been the Gary Simons, D’Vario Montgomerys, and Duaron Williamses that he’s been hot after. The talented high school players. No urge to load up on endless JC players—and of that handful he did sign last year, two have more than two years of eligibility remaining.

E. Iowa
Mac: I hesitate to add this one to the mix, but under McCarney’s tenure it was a clear issue, and resultingly, a clear problem. It seemed as if every year, in and out, Mac signed a handful of Iowa kids who were never going to contribute. They simply didn’t have the athleticism for major college football. Essentially, a certain percentage of the roster was deadwood, players who were on the practice squad, but merely absorbed a scholarship for four or five years without making any apparent contribution. Almost as if he was filling a quota. And when you only have eighty-five scholarships in the first place, shaving off another ten to fifteen is only hamstringing yourself. Now, I might have considered this simply a suspicion of mine, but when I asked one of Mac’s players about that situation, I was taken aback. After having been forthcoming on a number of subjects, all of a sudden he clammed up. “We’re not allowed to talk about it,†was all he said.

Rhoads: I find it interesting how some people lambast CPR’s predecessor for “ignoring†Iowa recruits—and yet he still brought in some good Iowa kids. In Paul Rhoads case, he has been both selective and productive. I don’t really see any “deadwood†in his classes. Matter of fact, the biggest instate “reach†in the last signing class had to have been either Collin Bevins or Kane Seeley—and both of those guys have sterling “athleticism†credentials.

That’s it for now, folks. And while I am sure that Paul Rhoads has his own flaws—though I am as yet uncertain as to what they are—it does appear that he is making an effort not to repeat the mistakes of his one-time mentor. And doing a bangup job of it as well!

mcccarney--great salesman and promoter of iowa state football. had some great coaches and some very- very -very poor coaches/ these were marty fine and the ******** barney cotton from nebraska. erase those hires and mac may have been more successful.fine and cotton were the biggest losers and jokes that mac hired.

paul rhoads-- rhoads inherited two good offensive tackles from chizzystick in hicks and osemele. those two big roadgraders will be very hard to replace. the biggest question we have is going to be the quality of our offensive line. we have a decent qb in jantz,but he injured his foot last year and fizzled out the rest of the season..i think if jantz stays healthy he will be our quarterback because he is bigger than barnett. barnett will be an alternate qb. i think we will see plenty of sam richardson b4 the season is finished.. we have plenty of depth at running back and some good young reeivers and if the offensive line jells our offense could be very good. the offensive line has to open holes for our nice stable of running backs to move the ball and our ol has to hold off the defense on passing situations. i think our offensive line will be our biggest question mark.we have a very good defensive coordinator and he is a good recruiter for us in florida. i think coach wally burnham has a good nucleus in the dl.lbs, and in our defensive backs. we have one db that is 5-7 that gets picked on and i hope we find some one 6-0 that has speed and leaping ability to defend against 6-3 wr's and 6-6 te's. that may be our weak point on defense. overall burnhan and son have done some very good recruiting in florida.
if rhoads can go 8-4 or better,it will help our recruiting..we need to beat old man snyder at kansas state. i think our season will be tougher with the addittion of tcu and west virginia. husk the fuskers. muck fizzou.GO CYCLONES!!!!!

 

[bosco]

When I read the OP's reference to Marty Fine, I first thought of Marty Tirrell!

And I have no idea whether having "a violent history against Easter eggs" is a compliment, an ethnic slur, a religious insult, a red herring, or just something to make me feel even more ignorant.

http://www.cyclonefanatic.com/forum/football/45306-marty-fine-possible-candidate.html#post785887

Dave Sanderson ‏@davesanderson
I went to an Easter egg hunt today and Marty Fine showed up with a gun. @SteveDeace @jondmiller @MurphyKeith

http://www.cyclonefanatic.com/forum/football/105372-nebraska-look-like-thread-4.html#post1978525

http://www.cyclonefanatic.com/forum/football/38623-pelini-cotton.html#post649656

After an especially horrendous game Marty Fine was quoted as saying this...

"They don't talk about how nice the Easter eggs were. They talk about the guys who pulled out the gun and shot the Easter eggs. Today that was us."

http://iowastate.scout.com/2/194112.html

 

[burn587]

For the love of god people stop quoting the OP's entire original post, it is just too damn long.

 

[DrClone]

Mac's recruting took a major dump in 04/05/06. For a program like ISU, just 1 really bad year could sink a lot of the momentum, but 2 or 3....well, we saw what happened. Hell, KU on a similar note went from NFL prospect WRs, alll big 12 defenders, and their best QB in school history to a historically bad Big 12 team in what 3 years? The cliff come fast.

Kind of off track here, but Gene Chizik was always viewed at the time of the hire as using ISU as a stepping stone....but Pollard USED Chizik to sell his vision to the donors and ticket holders, and now look where ISU athletics is 5 years later finacially, and with facilities.

I'm gonna flat out say it, Gene Chizik was ISU's stepping stone to bigger and better things. Chizik was worth millions to ISU, and in retrun he got to wear 5-19. Hahaha. Suck it Chiz! Not that he cares anymore because of a MNC at Auburbn, but still. Thats for the bump in revenue, chump.

I think your giving too much credit to Chizik. Granted he recruited a few good players. Other than that as you put it we got a 5-19 record. I believe Rhoads could have won more games with the same players that Chizik had. Also Rhoads may have brought the increase in fans and the increased revenue that you are crediting to Chizik. Not that I don't think Chizik did a few good things - but we might be even better off had we hired Rhoads 2 years earlier.

 

[Clonefan94]

Great Post OP.

 

[CarolinaCy]

Loved your intelligent analysis. I think you are factually incorrect about at least one thing though. He never inked double digit Juco players as part of one class. He got seven as I recall, and as a group they were real good, and saved Mac's job, because he was down to about his last bullet. He had to show improvement that year or he would be gone. Had a particularly good db or two in that group as I recall but I cannot remember his/their name(s).

You are critical about him for signing so many Iowa players, as if it occurred in a vacuum. It took place because he had to have players on his roster and he could only get Iowans. They were the best he could get. The Texas and Florida pipelines had not yet been established.
:realmad:

In 2002, Mac signed 9 JUCO players (four 4*, five 3*), most of whom either never made it to campus or set foot on the field. That class also included a few players who just didn't contribute anything (Smith twins, Kyle Van Winkle, Jimmy Morris, etc.). In fact, outside of Austin Flynn and Stevie Hicks (both 4* recruits), the best players in that class were mostly 2* guys (Jon Davis, Ryan Kock, Nick Leaders, Matt Robertson, Korey Pence, Seth Zehr). This is the recruiting class that doomed Mac at ISU.

The 9 JUCO players:

Amecus Daniels, DB, 3*
Mike Hmoud, OL, 3*
Curtis James, OL, 4*
Collin Menard, OL, 4*
Saheed Richardson, DE, 3*
Frederico Samuel, DT, 4*
Max Steward, LB, 4*
Waye Terry, QB, 3*
Emmanuel Valcourt, OL, 3*

 

[cyclone13]

The 9 JUCO players:

Amecus Daniels, DB, 3*
Mike Hmoud, OL, 3*
Curtis James, OL, 4*
Collin Menard, OL, 4*
Saheed Richardson, DE, 3*
Frederico Samuel, DT, 4*
Max Steward, LB, 4*
Waye Terry, QB, 3*
Emmanuel Valcourt, OL, 3*[/QUOTE]

Did Menard play quite a bit ?
Terry had to retire IIRC because of neck injury but he couldn't beat Austin Flynn.
I'm not familiar with the others - so, yes, they looked like busts.

 

[NickTheGreat]

It was a long read, but a good read. :yes:

 

[Stormin]

Very good post. Some great points. IMO, Mac did a pretty good job at ISU. We were in the grave when he first came. Walden did not win a game in his last year IIRC. And Walden was the only coach in the country that could stop Troy Davis from rushing for a ton of yards.........because he kept him on the bench.

Mac revived ISU football. And we took advantage of a creampuff schedule to go 9-3 with the Insight Bowl. A close Independence Bowl loss to Alabama the next year and I thought that ISU was on the right path. 2003 was bad.....very bad.

Mac started reaching for recruits in an effort to shore things up. And you just can't have that many misses. By 2006, it was apparent that recruiting had completely dried up. We were not getting D1 players or very few of them. Chizik gave us hope. And Pollard sold the hope. Chizik leaving turned out to be a blessing. Because now we have CPR and we have even greater hope.

 

[ThurgoodMarshal]

Good post! Looooong but good. The CPR era is just getting started. Can't wait to read a post like this in another 5 years.