The official 'I hate Pau Gasol' thread

LeBron

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Nov 12, 2008
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The only 3 players that can even be considered to be the greatest of all time are (in order of greatest)

1. Jordan- one of the greatest athletes ever
2. Wilt- anytime you score 100 points or average more than 50 ppg in a season, you're pretty good
3. Oscar Robertson- Most dominant "little guy" pre- Jordan. Averaged triple double over an entire season
 

mwitt

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Mar 23, 2006
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No doubt they changed the rules to benefit Jordan. The rules have changed a little today to where it is harder to score as much. But the Jordan lovers will never admit that

That's interesting. I'm not familiar with all of the exact changes, but I heard the other day (I believe it was on Mike & Mike, but I'm not sure) that in the 90s, you could win in the Finals scoring 85-95 points, but today you pretty much need to get upper 90s or in the 100s. Basically, saying the exact opposite as you.
 

clones_jer

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Apr 16, 2006
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Precisely. Longevity is part of greatness. Kareem had longevity on the court...Jordan didn't. Kareem didn't need time off...actually he probably did, because he suffered severe migraines, but he never took the time off. Kareem was a major contributor to title-winning teams in his 18th and 19th years.



We'll never know, will we, since Jordan didn't play for 20 straight seasons. Also, wasn't Jordan's knee pretty well trashed at the end of his career (playing 2/3 the games that Kareem did)? We don't even know that he could have played as long as Kareem did.

But here's what we do know...Kareem played for 20 straight seasons (plus three years of college before that), and Jordan didn't.



And that's what makes what Kareem did all the more impressive. He accomplished what he did while not always being the primary focus of his team.



Except that this isn't a valid method to determine greatness, because it doesn't account for career longevity. And even if you did look at career average numbers, it's not obvious that Jordan was clearly the better player. Although, Jordan scored about 20% more points per game, Kareem was a better FG% shooter. If Kareem had taken as many shots per game as Jordan did, with his better FG%, Kareem's PPG would have increased by 5.2 PPG (if my math is right), and be nearly identical to Jordan's.

Kareem nearly doubled Jordan's rebounding average. Jordan had more steals, while Kareem had more blocks.

There's more to the game than just high-flying dunks and scoring points.

........G....FG...FGA..FG%..FT.FTA..FT%
Kareem 1560 10.2 18.1 .559 4.3 6.0 .721
Jordan 1072 11.4 22.9 .497 6.8 8.2 .835

........TRB.AST.STL.BLK.TOV.PF..PTS
Kareem 11.2 3.6 0.9 2.6 2.7 3.0 24.6
Jordan 06.2 5.3 2.3 0.8 2.7 2.6 30.1

Now that you've compared Jordan to Kareem, please provide your thesis on Randy Johnson vs Frank Thomas.
 

jbhtexas

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Oct 20, 2006
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You are out of your skull if you think the NBA is trying to make it harder to score ... they've been trying to make it more highscoring since the mid-80s.

But Kobe-sucklers will never admit that.

If that were true, Kobe would have gotten a foul call on every one of his drives to the hoop during the 4th quarter of last night's game, just like Jordan did. How many times were fouls called last night during the 4th quarter when Kobe took it to the hole?
 

clones_jer

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Apr 16, 2006
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The only 3 players that can even be considered to be the greatest of all time are (in order of greatest)

1. Jordan- one of the greatest athletes ever
2. Wilt- anytime you score 100 points or average more than 50 ppg in a season, you're pretty good
3. Oscar Robertson- Most dominant "little guy" pre- Jordan. Averaged triple double over an entire season

Somebody write this down ... I would've that you would have LeBron at #1? ... must be #4? :cool:
 

joefrog

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Apr 29, 2008
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If that were true, Kobe would have gotten a foul call on every one of his drives to the hoop during the 4th quarter of last night's game, just like Jordan did. How many times were fouls called last night during the 4th quarter when Kobe took it to the hole?

Are you telling me the Lakers didn't shoot a single free throw in the 4th Quarter or something? You have to be kidding me. The premier NBA franchise couldn't get calls? It is almost as if they wanted the series to go extra games in order to increase revenues.

If the Magic could learn to shoot free throws we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Chokers.
 

Clones85'

Just Win Baby
Jan 31, 2007
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Jordan played when NBA scoring was depressed. Remember the "thug-ball" Knicks, Pistons and Heat?!?!

You are out of your skull if you think the NBA is trying to make it harder to score ... they've been trying to make it more highscoring since the mid-80s.

But Kobe-sucklers will never admit that.

You are 125% incorrect and Facts disagree with. Give me 5 and I will show you that NBA scoring has declined by 17 points in the past 20 years.
 

clones_jer

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Apr 16, 2006
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If that were true, Kobe would have gotten a foul call on every one of his drives to the hoop during the 4th quarter of last night's game, just like Jordan did. How many times were fouls called last night during the 4th quarter when Kobe took it to the hole?

Oh sweet Jesus, don't tell me every poster on this board in the great state of Texas has a big conspiricy theory complex.

The NBA has been shortening shot clocks, messing with 3 pt lines, instituting hand check penalties, and out-lawing (then un-outlawing) Zone D in attempts to get more points scored.

Its common freaking knowledge the NBA would like more points scored (just like the NFL). The league always give reasons for rule changes and since the 80's they've been stating they wanted more total points.
 

clones_jer

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You are 125% incorrect and Facts disagree with. Give me 5 and I will show you that NBA scoring has declined by 17 points in the past 20 years.

BUT THEY'VE BEEN TRYING TO STOP IT

I believe they've (the league) has been moderately successful in the last 5 years at improving it.
 

mike4cy

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Aug 4, 2006
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Wow, this discussion is getting very juvenile. You would think some of these guys were killing Americans in a war or something.
 

clones_jer

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Here is an article from stats guy Dave Hollinger on how points have gone down over the years. This was written in 2004. I will find some more

SI.com - Writers - Hollinger: NBA scoring in decline - Monday November 1, 2004 3:25PM

I was just going to post that to prove my point :biggrin:

the league has been trying everything (I forgot the 3 to make 2 crap) to increase scoring to no avail.

His main point is that NBA players today suck at jump shooting (2 PT FG %)
 

jbhtexas

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Oct 20, 2006
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Oh sweet Jesus, don't tell me every poster on this board in the great state of Texas has a big conspiricy theory complex.

I don't recall proposing any conspiracy theories. I was just pointing out that the facts of last night's game don't seem to agree with your assertion. If the NBA wanted to increase scoring, one way to do that would be to call fouls closer and increase FT attempts. That certainly didn't seem to be the case last night, at least from the Lakers standpoint.

Chill out already...
 

mwitt

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Mar 23, 2006
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When did the NBA implement the continuation? That's one of the stupidest, most illogical things I've ever heard of.
 

clones_jer

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I don't recall proposing any conspiracy theories. I was just pointing out that the facts of last night's game don't seem to agree with your assertion. If the NBA wanted to increase scoring, one way to do that would be to call fouls closer and increase FT attempts. That certainly didn't seem to be the case last night, at least from the Lakers standpoint.

Chill out already...

The league would like more points for entertainment values ... not sure calling more shooting fouls is the way they'd like to go about it.

And you won - you can stop whining about Kobe not being called. He does enough for both of you.

He didn't get fouled on a lot of his drives ... so he didnt' shoot.
 

Clones85'

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Jan 31, 2007
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Quick, tell me the history on the 3-point line movements (and not just the last 3 years)

Easy. 3 times in the 90's (jordan era) the 3 point line decreased. Closer, closer, closer. In the late 90's (I think 98-99 season) it increased and than increased again a year or two ago.