What do we think of CSP . . .

[mdk2isu]

Expectations with Naz and Monte back should have been a top 25 team. While sweeping the Oklahoma and Kansas schools on the road is really good it also comes along with already losing three games at home.

When he came in some said he would be good at transitioning us from Fred he hasn't done a horrible job but it has been less than smooth. Others said he knew how to coach since he was already a head coach. Again he hasn't been the worst but he definitely is still learning.

If we finish the season only losing at West Virginia and winning a couple games in the KC and the NCAA then that will go a long way. He has to dig himself out of a bit of a hole he dug mid season. .

Huh? What hole did he dig himself? ISU is 4 made shots from being 20-5 on the year and ranked in the top 15, maybe top 10. Perspective matters.

Also some of this is a result of underachieving last year. While the NCAA tournament results were good they really were not that impressive. A poor finish in the regular season, one and done in KC, and only beating double digit seeds in the NCAA are nothing to be thrilled about. Some point to the lack of depth which was true but some of that was self induced with McKay issues (while I wouldn't have normally tolerated that type of stuff you have to adjust to personnel). The thing is unless you are Duke or Kentucky and even then every team has flaws. We were a top 15 team and really didn't perform like one.

All in all I am hopeful that he can be successful here. I feel much better than I did mid season where I thought he was showing an inability to improve. I still have my doubts though.

Odd that a transition year from one coach to another had a couple speed bumps in it. Show me a situation where it has been seamless for any team.

You are saying they underachieved because they took to a team that ended up going to the Final Four down to the wire in KC in the Big 12 tournament before losing? And they beat the two teams they matched up with who happened to be double digit seeds the first two rounds in the NCAA Tournament? Nobody cares who you beat in March, they only care how far you go.

 

[Stewo]

Expectations with Naz and Monte back should have been a top 25 team. While sweeping the Oklahoma and Kansas schools on the road is really good it also comes along with already losing three games at home.

When he came in some said he would be good at transitioning us from Fred he hasn't done a horrible job but it has been less than smooth. Others said he knew how to coach since he was already a head coach. Again he hasn't been the worst but he definitely is still learning.

If we finish the season only losing at West Virginia and winning a couple games in the KC and the NCAA then that will go a long way. He has to dig himself out of a bit of a hole he dug mid season.

Also some of this is a result of underachieving last year. While the NCAA tournament results were good they really were not that impressive. A poor finish in the regular season, one and done in KC, and only beating double digit seeds in the NCAA are nothing to be thrilled about. Some point to the lack of depth which was true but some of that was self induced with McKay issues (while I wouldn't have normally tolerated that type of stuff you have to adjust to personnel). The thing is unless you are Duke or Kentucky and even then every team has flaws. We were a top 15 team and really didn't perform like one.

All in all I am hopeful that he can be successful here. I feel much better than I did mid season where I thought he was showing an inability to improve. I still have my doubts though.

I don't understand the logic that because we have Naz and Monte back that we should automatically be in the top 25. We're missing vital pieces to complete the team. I mean, we're Iowa State and we just lost 2 guys that were drafted in the NBA and a third guy that's playing professionally overseas. We aren't Kansas and just reload every off season. And then add to that we're installing a new system. Our 3 home losses are to the current #3, 9, and 18 ranked teams. It's not like we've just rolled over to scrub teams. And for the record, I'll never consider a Sweet 16 birth a disappointment.

 

[madguy30]

Expectations with Naz and Monte back should have been a top 25 team. While sweeping the Oklahoma and Kansas schools on the road is really good it also comes along with already losing three games at home.

What did you think of Tim Floyd?

Lost 3 games in Hilton with one of the best teams in school history and they were all seniors, including one of the best centers ever in Cato. That included getting punked by a bad Nebraska team.

With the lack of a 5 it's amazing they were within one made shot of getting Cincinatti, which fell last year at Cinci.

I'm repeating and repeating but I'll also note how if Naz's shot does NOT go in or if Gessel's free throws GO in the 13/14 squad drops 3 at home as well. But nobody ever recognizes that. Weird stuff.

 

[jkclone]

What did you think of Tim Floyd?

Lost 3 games in Hilton with one of the best teams in school history and they were all seniors, including one of the best centers ever in Cato. That included getting punked by a bad Nebraska team.

With the lack of a 5 it's amazing they were within one made shot of getting Cincinatti, which fell last year at Cinci.

I'm repeating and repeating but I'll also note how if Naz's shot does NOT go in or if Gessel's free throws GO in the 13/14 squad drops 3 at home as well. But nobody ever recognizes that. Weird stuff.

You guys are free to be super positive but the acting like there's no possible way people can have concerns is bull ****. I have issues with substitution patterns and offensive game plans that I could discuss more in depth. My point is you are free to think he is a great coach but don't act like there aren't valid spots to be concerned about.

 

[swarthmoreCY]

He deserved to be fired. He was a great recruiter but underwhelming coach.

I wouldn't say he deserved to be fired, but it's reasonable that NCSt wants a different type of coach. He's a good recruiter and decent coach, but a lot of coaches can get good talent there.

 

[madguy30]

You guys are free to be super positive but the acting like there's no possible way people can have concerns is bull ****. I have issues with substitution patterns and offensive game plans that I could discuss more in depth. My point is you are free to think he is a great coach but don't act like there aren't valid spots to be concerned about.

I'm not saying he's a great coach...I've wondered about the subbing patterns, ability to fit game plans to players' strengths, etc. and have posted about it. I also think it's a red flag that he's just now calling the shots on line ups vs. his assistants.

The onus also goes on the players too and I'm not always sure about the player-coach connection.

I was at the game last Saturday: Prohm has been talking about side to side movement of the ball and how it has literally, statistically been better for the team, yet you have seniors calling everyone off for a clear out when the defense has already been set. It was very clear a couple of times that Naz was trying to get something going from off the ball, but Morris called him off, dribbled around for 10 seconds and forced himself inside for an out of position shot in heavy traffic. Happened a couple of times Wednesday too.

Main point is things aren't always great no matter who's coaching and the hindsight and the greatness former coaches is quite incredible.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you also said the win at KU didn't do much for you or something along those lines, so perhaps it's just never going to be as good as Fred's 3rd place, no lead is safe type of teams again.

 

[jkclone]

I'm not saying he's a great coach...I've wondered about the subbing patterns, ability to fit game plans to players' strengths, etc. and have posted about it. I also think it's a red flag that he's just now calling the shots on line ups vs. his assistants.

The onus also goes on the players too and I'm not always sure about the player-coach connection.

I was at the game last Saturday: Prohm has been talking about side to side movement of the ball and how it has literally, statistically been better for the team, yet you have seniors calling everyone off for a clear out when the defense has already been set. It was very clear a couple of times that Naz was trying to get something going from off the ball, but Morris called him off, dribbled around for 10 seconds and forced himself inside for an out of position shot in heavy traffic. Happened a couple of times Wednesday too.

Main point is things aren't always great no matter who's coaching and the hindsight and the greatness former coaches is quite incredible.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you also said the win at KU didn't do much for you or something along those lines, so perhaps it's just never going to be as good as Fred's 3rd place, no lead is safe type of teams again.

That was a great win but it doesn't always take great coaching to win there. Wayne Morgan won there and really should have twice.

My point is no coach is perfect always but the good/great coaches show stretches of greatness that help to push the bad away. I haven't really seen the greatness to make me ignore some of the bad. Fred showed a ton of greatness building the team from nothing. Shaka Smart showed greatness by making the final four with a bubble team. Now some of that stuff was obviously luck but it happened for them and I don't think enough has happened for Prohm yet. I also look at the coaching staff and worry. I don't know enough about Small or the new coach but I worry about Robinson and Hobbs who have questionable experience.

It gets old though when people come on here and post about gloating at the people who are skeptical. I think we are at a very important time in Iowa State basketball history where we can become a perineal tournament team or we can sink back into being a good basketball team with a great home court advantage.

 

[swarthmoreCY]

I don't understand the logic that because we have Naz and Monte back that we should automatically be in the top 25. We're missing vital pieces to complete the team. I mean, we're Iowa State and we just lost 2 guys that were drafted in the NBA and a third guy that's playing professionally overseas. We aren't Kansas and just reload every off season. And then add to that we're installing a new system. Our 3 home losses are to the current #3, 9, and 18 ranked teams. It's not like we've just rolled over to scrub teams. And for the record, I'll never consider a Sweet 16 birth a disappointment.

Right on. We're a missed recruiting cycle due to a year long coaching transition away from being a complete team. Like with Nader, Prohm has done a great job getting Burton to improve, but we started the year without a reliable go-to guy or any posts. That's two major holes. And yet we are still "good fortune" away from being in the Top 10.

You guys are free to be super positive but the acting like there's no possible way people can have concerns is bull ****. I have issues with substitution patterns and offensive game plans that I could discuss more in depth. My point is you are free to think he is a great coach but don't act like there aren't valid spots to be concerned about.

It's not being super positive as much as it's being realistic. Your extrapolating fickle possession-level outcomes into some far-reaching concern while applying a standard no coach would meet, certainly not one with an incomplete team. I wasn't a Prohm guy and he's not a tactical savant, but from a high-level view he's doing very well and looks to have what it takes to win here. Frankly he's likely better than Fred, although Fred had the White connection and got Georges. For many fans their opinion of Prohm would change greatly based on different outcomes of 3 or 4 possessions and having another "buy" win.

 

[ca4cy]

I'm not looking past this season and I'm excited with how we're trending but I'm actually looking forward to next year, at least from the standpoint of just being able to sit down and watch a game without the stress that expectations bring. I do it to myself every time we have a big senior class that's had an impact on the program. I did it with Fred, Julo, Meyer and Hurl...Dedric, Bankhead, Jacy & Pratt....Stevie and Marcus....Tinsley, Horton, Shirley and Rancik...Georges (enough personality for 4 or 5 guys) and plenty of others. I get invested in those players and want it so bad for them that I probably sweat the games out more than they do. It's a personality flaw with me and I've done it again with this senior class, particularly the 4 year guys. I want them to go out with as much success as possible because their legacy deserves it for how much they've elevated this program in the conference and nationally. We used to be a nice story once in awhile that was known for a good home court advantage but I'm not sure a lot of people appreciate how good we have it now. We are a nationally respected and relevant program and a lot of that has been accomplished on the backs of this senior class. Success spoils fan bases and I've seen it with ours, myself included.

With that in mind I think I'll be able to take a step back and give a much less biased opinion of Prohm's coaching next year when I'm not quite as invested. You know, because my opinion is important and I know he's waiting to hear what I think. I assume Pollard will factor it in when considering contract extensions.

 

[carvers4math]

I think our improved defense is really helping our conference road play. I don't know the stats but impressed by the number of steals we seem to get.

 

[madguy30]

It gets old though when people come on here and post about gloating at the people who are skeptical. I think we are at a very important time in Iowa State basketball history where we can become a perineal tournament team or we can sink back into being a good basketball team with a great home court advantage.

This is basically what I've seen ISU as with exception to the 99-00 team, but I didn't even realize that until the NCAA tourney so it generally works for me.

Expecting greatness as the norm, imo, is fun I suppose but unrealistic outside of the blue bloods, and even they're not always great in the current era of CBB.

 

[EarthIsMan]

Shaka Smart showed greatness by making the final four with a bubble team.

That same Shaka Smart that had the 1st and 2nd ranked recruiting classes in the B12 in 2015 and 2016, and currently has Texas 1 game ahead of last place in the B12 in 2017?

I don't know enough about Small or the new coach but I worry about Robinson and Hobbs who have questionable experience.

David Hobbs has unquestionable experience as an assistant during Alabama's basketball heyday in the 80s (10 NCAA tournaments in 12 years, and 6 of them making it to the sweet 16). Hobbs is pretty connected in the college basketball world as his coaching tree can attest.

Robinson has a pretty good record with recruiting and developing post players. Small's forte seems to be spotting undervalued guards and recruiting them (Courtney Lee and Cameron Payne). Berry is said to be in a very similar mold to Prohm and has been active while at ISU on the recruiting trail.

All things considered I feel like Prohm has assembled a strong staff.

It gets old though when people come on here and post about gloating at the people who are skeptical. I think we are at a very important time in Iowa State basketball history where we can become a perineal tournament team or we can sink back into being a good basketball team with a great home court advantage.

Constructive debate is important and there is nothing wrong with being critical against Prohm. There are some coaching aspects that I have stated in other threads that I either find confusing or would like to see improve.

But the truth is ANY team, person, civilization, etc. that ascends to the "top" can fall....or they can also stay there at the top. It all depends who is steering the ship. Results and evidence support so far that Prohm is doing a pretty good job steering the ship, and I guess I have yet to see actual results to state otherwise.

 

[BryceC]

One thing that I think the doubters really need to keep remembering is that all season we've been playing without ANY front court to speak of. That is HUGE. In basketball, you have back court and front court players and we are missing half of that equation. The fact that we've done as well as we have is perhaps amazing.

I'm REALLY excited about what the late season emergence of Solomon could mean for us. Just look at our two game sample size of having just one front court player. Giddy.

True, good point - this could have been 2006 part two. Great backcourt, front court lacking.

 

[swarthmoreCY]

This is basically what I've seen ISU as with exception to the 99-00 team, but I didn't even realize that until the NCAA tourney so it generally works for me.

Yeah, what he's worried about falling back to is what Hoiberg teams actually were due to his indifference to anything but offense. It just shows you their selective memory on Hoiberg.

 

[AuH2O]

Expectations with Naz and Monte back should have been a top 25 team. While sweeping the Oklahoma and Kansas schools on the road is really good it also comes along with already losing three games at home.

When he came in some said he would be good at transitioning us from Fred he hasn't done a horrible job but it has been less than smooth. Others said he knew how to coach since he was already a head coach. Again he hasn't been the worst but he definitely is still learning.

If we finish the season only losing at West Virginia and winning a couple games in the KC and the NCAA then that will go a long way. He has to dig himself out of a bit of a hole he dug mid season.

Also some of this is a result of underachieving last year. While the NCAA tournament results were good they really were not that impressive. A poor finish in the regular season, one and done in KC, and only beating double digit seeds in the NCAA are nothing to be thrilled about. Some point to the lack of depth which was true but some of that was self induced with McKay issues (while I wouldn't have normally tolerated that type of stuff you have to adjust to personnel). The thing is unless you are Duke or Kentucky and even then every team has flaws. We were a top 15 team and really didn't perform like one.

All in all I am hopeful that he can be successful here. I feel much better than I did mid season where I thought he was showing an inability to improve. I still have my doubts though.

How disappointed were you in 2012-13? Clyburn, Babb, Ejim, Lucious, McGee, Niang didn't sniff the top 25 and were a 10 seed. Being a couple years removed from a huge post season drought vs being in the midst of unprecedented consistency tends to really effect expectations more than the reality of the talent.

 

[fsanford]

Expectations with Naz and Monte back should have been a top 25 team. While sweeping the Oklahoma and Kansas schools on the road is really good it also comes along with already losing three games at home.

When he came in some said he would be good at transitioning us from Fred he hasn't done a horrible job but it has been less than smooth. Others said he knew how to coach since he was already a head coach. Again he hasn't been the worst but he definitely is still learning.

If we finish the season only losing at West Virginia and winning a couple games in the KC and the NCAA then that will go a long way. He has to dig himself out of a bit of a hole he dug mid season.

Also some of this is a result of underachieving last year. While the NCAA tournament results were good they really were not that impressive. A poor finish in the regular season, one and done in KC, and only beating double digit seeds in the NCAA are nothing to be thrilled about. Some point to the lack of depth which was true but some of that was self induced with McKay issues (while I wouldn't have normally tolerated that type of stuff you have to adjust to personnel). The thing is unless you are Duke or Kentucky and even then every team has flaws. We were a top 15 team and really didn't perform like one.

All in all I am hopeful that he can be successful here. I feel much better than I did mid season where I thought he was showing an inability to improve. I still have my doubts though.

I will take beating a couple of double digit seeds in the NCAA vs losing to them every single time. Because I know come the next year when they promote this tournament it really sucks having to sit through the videos which star your team as a 2 or 3 seed getting a loss dropped on them by Tennessee Southwest Tech.

That just sucks

 

[BBHMagic]

True, good point - this could have been 2006 part two. Great backcourt, front court lacking.

That's the year I keep thinking back to. That was a huge thing back then thinking "if we only had a front court". But even then, we were better up front with Hubalek and Taggert/Gray/Marsden, all above 6-10.

 

[BBHMagic]

Expectations with Naz and Monte back should have been a top 25 team.

Again I think you're discounting not having ANYTHING in the front court. Especially now with the benefit of hindsight. It seems silly to think we should have been a ranked team when we've actually seen how little Bowie and Holden have contributed.

 

[rochclone]

Yeah, what he's worried about falling back to is what Hoiberg teams actually were due to his indifference to anything but offense. It just shows you their selective memory on Hoiberg.

Your hatred of Hoiberg is just baffling. Has Prohm done anything this point to eclipse Hoiberg? Then how the hell can we "fall back" to Hoiberg levels. You must mean making the NCAA Tournament 80% of the time, winning the conference tournament 40% of the time, and making the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament 60%.

I hope Prohm can keep building on the foundation that Hoiberg started and take us to greater levels. But the hatred toward Fred is just pitiful.

 

[jkclone]

Again I think you're discounting not having ANYTHING in the front court. Especially now with the benefit of hindsight. It seems silly to think we should have been a ranked team when we've actually seen how little Bowie and Holden have contributed.

That's because they haven't been used right. Bowie was never a 5 and can't play it with 4 guards. Holden has struggled but once they found his role he has performed well. Young is inexperienced but a really solid big. He was always going to struggle early but needed to play more so he could get his legs for the conference season. We don't have that one big but we do have three solid forwards. One who I think will be really good in three years. We also have one of if not the best backcourts in the country.

If we went back and changed a couple results we would be in the top 25. Heck if we win tomorrow we might sneak back in at 25. We will be in the top 25 if we win our next three games. That is why the middle of the season where we didn't even look like we were going to make the tournament was concerning.