Took Orr Five Years to Win 20

[redskinsisu]

It took Orr Five Years to have a 20 win season.

Orr Year 1: 9-18. Best players. Junior Robert Estes and Freshman Ron Harris.

Orr Year 2: 10-17 and 5-9 in conference play. Best players. Soph Ron Harris, Fresh Barry Stevens and Senior Robert Estes.

Orr Year 3: 13-15 and 5-9 in conference play. Best players. Junior Ron Harris, Soph Barry Stevens.

Orr Year 4: 16-13 and 6-8 in conference play. Best players Senior Ron Harris and Junior Barry Stevens. This was Orr's first chance to have players in his system for 4 years and it resulted in 16 wins and a NIT bid. The foundation was established this year.

GMAC Year 4 Projection: Will not predict record or result. Best players will be junior Craig Brackins, junior DG, junior LS. The key here is GMAC finally has a chance to have his most talented players returning for their third year in his system.

Orr Year 5: 21-13 and 7-7 in conference play. Best players are Senior Barry Stevens and freshman forward Jeff Grayer. Not until year five did Orr win 20 games. Again the key to this team was Barry Stevens and the fact he played in Orr’s system for four years.

GMAC Year 5 Projection: Again will not predict record or result. GMAC will finally have seniors in CB, DG, and LS in the system for four years.

Orr is regarded as one of the greatest if not greatest cyclone basketball coach (and I agree he is one of the greatest). And it took him 5 years to win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament and he only did this when he had established seniors who played four years in his system to lead the team.

The above is fact (with exception of who I posted as the best players).

The point of this post is to point out the fact Orr was granted time to build the program.

Below is my opinion.

I think the programs were in similar shape as to when Orr took over and when GMAC took the job (after Morgan's players left). I don't know why the players left I just know they left. And this left the program in terrible shape, just as terrible in my opinion as when Orr took over the program. If you want to argue this is GMAC's fault that is fine but the end result was GMAC went into the summer of his first season with the program in terrible shape similar to Orr.

It takes time to build success for a program. I do not know why Morgan was not awarded the same amount of time as our past coaches. But if a program starts firing coaches every three years they will never build long term success. Orr was awarded that time and he built success and established success for 14 years.

I think GMAC has the players and commits in place for long term success. And to fire him now after 2 years and 11 games or even after this season is over (year three) will just set the program back once again.

If Orr was fired after three years or even four years, ISU fans would never have seen Jeff Grayer play in a cyclone uniform. And he turned out to be ISU's all time leading scorer.

Cyclone fans want coaches to commit to them for 5 or 6 years but Cyclone fans are not willing to commit to the coaches ISU hires for the same amount of time. What is the difference between GC leaving after two years and cyclone fans turning on GMAC after 2 years and 11 games?

Chris Thomas
Monroe, IA
Basketball and football season tickets

 

[Palmer]

excellent post Chris.

 

[Wesley]

Did Johnny lose to South Dakota State, a true 17 point underdog, at home? Probably not in his ISU coaching career.

 

[Wesley]

Did Johnny lose to South Dakota State, a true 17 point underdog, at home? Probably not in his ISU coaching career. How about Hawaii, a #229 team, on the road. Maybe. Maybe not. We are losing to teams we should be able to wipe the floor with. Instead we bounce around uintil we loose in the end. And we failed to score 60 points again. This is noit comforting news. Goodbye post season for sure.

 

[cyco2000]

You really think the program before Orr got here was the same as when McD got here? When was the last time ISU was in the postseason before Orr? How about before McD?

Can we just focus on how people think McD will get it done here? What has HE shown that makes us think it is getting better? Stop deflecting things from McD's current status. We are in YEAR 3 of McD. What direction are we heading? What makes us think that we are getting better? I'd like to hear those, and would like even more to get behind them. But, I don't see too many positives.

 

[CyGuy33]

Not even a comparison. When Orr took over we hadn't been to the post season in 44 years.

It was 2 for Mac. There was no such thing as Hilton Magic. You could buy a ticket in the top row and walk down to row 1.

Comparing what Mac took over to what Orr took over is a terrible, terrible comparison. Look at what Iowa State Basketball has accomplished in the last 15 years. In the 15 years prior to Orr Iowa State was nothing.

 

[Wesley]

Not even a comparison. When Orr took over we hadn't been to the post season in 44 years.

It was 2 for Mac. There was no such thing as Hilton Magic. You could buy a ticket in the top row and walk down to row 1.

Comparing what Mac took over to what Orr took over is a terrible, terrible comparison. Look at what Iowa State Basketball has accomplished in the last 15 years. In the 15 years prior to Orr Iowa State was nothing.

We truly apologize for our indiscretions comparing your situation with the current one. 2008-09 Cyclones have no excuse to lose to SDSU travelling in from a blizzard on Monday. The fire is gone.

 

[CyGuy33]

Also, Orr went to the NIT his fourth season and to the NCAA Tournament in year 5.

Larry Nance was the coach for four years prior to Orr, He finished 8th, 8th, 8th and 7th in the Big 8.

Orrs first four seasons went 8th, 6th, 5th, and 4th. He took a dog **** program and got them to the NIT in 4 years showing marked improvement year to year. The next two years he would finish 3rd and 2nd.

 

[DMCYFAN]

There are still rational people on this site, thanks Chris! I also have bball (and fball) tickets and fully support GMAC. I agree our fball and bball programs have been disappointing the last few years to say the least. I really do support GMAC still and think we are headed in the right direction, it's just taking time. I think if after 5 years of Mac we haven't seen any improvement then we can start to question him. I think we will see our Bball program really take off again in the next 2 years. We appear to be very well set up in recruiting for the next few years and I'd love to see what we can do with Brackins/Garrett/Lucca as seniors who have been in his system for that long. That would really be his first "true" class of his players making it through. Until we get to that point I'm not going to turn on Mac. Some of the points people make about bad coaching show they really know nothing about basketball. He is a very good coach and respected for his coaching by people who know what they're talking about.

It's been a rough few years for sure, last night was frustrating for sure. HAVE FAITH! Merry Christmas!!!

 

[CycloneErik]

Great post!

It's frustrating today, so it's hard to believe that it's possible for anything good to be happening.

I'll wager that each one of us has failed like the team did last night, and somebody was there to pick us back up and get us ready to get at whatever it was. As the fans, this low point is our chance to show our team that they are still our team, and this is our coach.

I didn't watch all the games back then, but records like Johnny had would indicate that there had to be some games just as frustrating as last night.

It's over. It was terrible to watch. My night at work went just like it. Now we move on.

 

[jaretac]

There was no such thing as Hilton Magic.

What's Hilton Magic

 

[Cyclonepride]

Stop trying to inject reason into an emotional coversation! All coaches must play in the post season in year 3 regardless of circumstances, and if not, we throw them in the trash heap and start all over again! Haven't you heard- in today's society everything must be now now now:yes:

 

[zach]

It took Orr Five Years to have a 20 win season.

Orr Year 1: 9-18. Best players. Junior Robert Estes and Freshman Ron Harris.

Orr Year 2: 10-17 and 5-9 in conference play. Best players. Soph Ron Harris, Fresh Barry Stevens and Senior Robert Estes.

Orr Year 3: 13-15 and 5-9 in conference play. Best players. Junior Ron Harris, Soph Barry Stevens.

Orr Year 4: 16-13 and 6-8 in conference play. Best players Senior Ron Harris and Junior Barry Stevens. This was Orr's first chance to have players in his system for 4 years and it resulted in 16 wins and a NIT bid. The foundation was established this year.

GMAC Year 4 Projection: Will not predict record or result. Best players will be junior Craig Brackins, junior DG, junior LS. The key here is GMAC finally has a chance to have his most talented players returning for their third year in his system.

Orr Year 5: 21-13 and 7-7 in conference play. Best players are Senior Barry Stevens and freshman forward Jeff Grayer. Not until year five did Orr win 20 games. Again the key to this team was Barry Stevens and the fact he played in Orr’s system for four years.

GMAC Year 5 Projection: Again will not predict record or result. GMAC will finally have seniors in CB, DG, and LS in the system for four years.

Orr is regarded as one of the greatest if not greatest cyclone basketball coach (and I agree he is one of the greatest). And it took him 5 years to win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament and he only did this when he had established seniors who played four years in his system to lead the team.

The above is fact (with exception of who I posted as the best players).

The point of this post is to point out the fact Orr was granted time to build the program.

Below is my opinion.

I think the programs were in similar shape as to when Orr took over and when GMAC took the job (after Morgan's players left). I don't know why the players left I just know they left. And this left the program in terrible shape, just as terrible in my opinion as when Orr took over the program. If you want to argue this is GMAC's fault that is fine but the end result was GMAC went into the summer of his first season with the program in terrible shape similar to Orr.

It takes time to build success for a program. I do not know why Morgan was not awarded the same amount of time as our past coaches. But if a program starts firing coaches every three years they will never build long term success. Orr was awarded that time and he built success and established success for 14 years.

I think GMAC has the players and commits in place for long term success. And to fire him now after 2 years and 11 games or even after this season is over (year three) will just set the program back once again.

If Orr was fired after three years or even four years, ISU fans would never have seen Jeff Grayer play in a cyclone uniform. And he turned out to be ISU's all time leading scorer.

Cyclone fans want coaches to commit to them for 5 or 6 years but Cyclone fans are not willing to commit to the coaches ISU hires for the same amount of time. What is the difference between GC leaving after two years and cyclone fans turning on GMAC after 2 years and 11 games?

Chris Thomas
Monroe, IA
Section 213 Row 3 Seat 1,2,3,4,5 for basketball. I also have season football tickets.

If you don't like my opinion, feel free to stop by, I have made every game this year.

Nice well thought out post.

Z

 

[StLouisClone]

Not even a comparison. When Orr took over we hadn't been to the post season in 44 years.

It was 2 for Mac. There was no such thing as Hilton Magic. You could buy a ticket in the top row and walk down to row 1.

Comparing what Mac took over to what Orr took over is a terrible, terrible comparison. Look at what Iowa State Basketball has accomplished in the last 15 years. In the 15 years prior to Orr Iowa State was nothing.

Whatever Orr lacked in terms of prior ISU history, he made up for it with his own history. Orr was a big-time, well-known coach in Michigan (a hot-bed for basketball at the time) and that's why he was able to attract the players that turned the program around (guys like Harris, Stevens and Grayer). ISU also had a brand new coliseum that was as nice as anything out there. So Orr wasn't as handcuffed as you would like us to think.

The orginal poster provided some much needed perspective. The people that are shouting on here about McDermott sound an awful lot like the people that were shouting on CycloneReport about Wayne Morgan. And much to my dismay at the time, Jamie Pollard seemed to listen to all the Morgan-bashers. Maybe there was more to the D1 Scheduling issue (I hope so), and Jamie had a really good reason to fire Morgan. Otherwise, firing a coach after his 3rd season is a very stupid thing to do. Haven't we all learned that by now?

 

[CycloneErik]

Stop trying to inject reason into an emotional coversation! All coaches must play in the post season in year 3 regardless of circumstances, and if not, we throw them in the trash heap and start all over again! Haven't you heard- in today's society everything must be now now now:yes:

Your post would have worked better if it was shorter. I lost track of it.....

 

[TheHelgo]

I am not saying that we should fire GMac after this year - because that is simply not very feasible right now. however, when it becomes apparent that it is simply not working (or going to work) under a coach, it is preferable to cut bait and try someone else than losing to crap programs year in and year out.

In my amateur opinion, we are in desperate need of some big bodies to bang in the middle and get rebounds. We have no one on the team that fits that criteria, and GMac is not recruiting anyone that fits that criteria. therefore, i cannot see us improving under GMac going forward. Brackins is a forward that is playing center - a position he simply does not have the body style for. GMac continues to recruit guards, and I cannot figure out why he doesn't focus on some big boys to take some pressure off those guards.

 

[CyGuy33]

Stop trying to inject reason into an emotional coversation! All coaches must play in the post season in year 3 regardless of circumstances, and if not, we throw them in the trash heap and start all over again! Haven't you heard- in today's society everything must be now now now:yes:

I never expected this group to be great. I was hoping for signs of improvement. I have not see that, if it's there please point it out to me. Our offense looks bleak, our defense is soft, we have no mental toughness.

I don't think it is much to ask that each year you see a little improvement in standing within the confernce, wins over better teams, skills development of players.

Mac's biggest win is in his first conference game as the head coach at Iowa State, it's the only time he's beaten a team that finished int he top half of the conference.

Orr beat #20 Oklahoma State and #10 Missouri in his 3rd season. That turned the program around very quickly and some marquee wins would certainly help GMac's case. But right now you look at his resume at Iowa State and what can you point to and say, yep that right there is why I believe?

 

[Hindy]

Greg could learn a lot from Orr. Orr said his assistant Coach told him they should rest Lafester against Iowa and Orr said " rest him ? I don't care if he dies out there I'm not taking him out."

 

[cyclonenum1]

Let me give you a couple of more facts...1)In the 10 years prior to Orr's arrival ISU had 7 losing seasons while in the 10 years prior to McDermott's arrival ISU had only 2 losing seasons...2)In the 10 years prior to Orr's arrival ISU had not been to an NCAA tournament (in fact it had been 40 plus years) while in the 10 years prior to McDermott's arrival ISU had been to 4 NCAA tournaments (including an Elite 8, a Sweet 16, and a second round appearance). THE MORAL OF THE STORY IS SIMPLE...ISU BB WAS IN FAR WORSE SHAPE WHEN ORR CAME TO TOWN THAN WHEN MCDERMOTT CAME TO TOWN AND YOUR COMPARISON IS FOOLISH!

 

[CycloneErik]

I never expected this group to be great. I was hoping for signs of improvement. I have not see that, if it's there please point it out to me. Our offense looks bleak, our defense is soft, we have no mental toughness.

I don't think it is much to ask that each year you see a little improvement in standing within the confernce, wins over better teams, skills development of players.

Mac's biggest win is in his first conference game as the head coach at Iowa State, it's the only time he's beaten a team that finished int he top half of the conference.

Orr beat #20 Oklahoma State and #10 Missouri in his 3rd season. That turned the program around very quickly and some marquee wins would certainly help GMac's case. But right now you look at his resume at Iowa State and what can you point to and say, yep that right there is why I believe?

Start a Big XII program from scratch, and see where you're at in year three. It's the same thing. No players, scrabbled together as best as possible, and still being put together.