I'm sorry to say it, but there needs to be some questions on Herman as OC

[CYinPA]

Don't kid yourself. This offense is structured to become uptempo. ISU may not be executing it but it is definatley structured as uptempo.

The procedure of the offense allows them to go any tempo, including up-tempo. It is similar to having formations that allow you to run several plays or plays that can be run from many formations. Given our inability to have success on offense, they are purposely choosing to not go up-tempo until otherwise. This can change game to game, series to series. Nice work by the staff imo.

There is something to be said about forcing the issue in making up-tempo work (if it is not working, you need to speed up). Like everything in football, you need to play/call "downhill"...our apparent gun-shyness is telling imo.

 

[tazclone]

I guess I'll wait for the Neb game to make an accurate comparison then. In last year's win at Lincoln, Jessie Smith and Michael Brandtner, both McCarney players, were dominant players; they were named Big 12 Defensive and Special teams players of the week respectively. Smith ended up leading the Big 12 in tackles for the season.

Knott is 4th- 75 total tackles-6games- 3 int
Klein is 6th- 71 total tackles-6 games- 3 int
Sims is 7th- 51 total tackles-5 games- 1 int

Jesse Smith- 135 tackles- 13 games- 2 INT

Sorry but there has not been much drop off from Smith to Klein and Klein is a sophmore. Some but not much.

I do like how you cherry pick your info. Last year out of our top 6 tacklers... 3 were DMac, 1 was Rhoads and 2 were chizdick. Thing is you expect Srs and your LBs to be your top tackle getters. Then look at DL Reump outperformed everyone on DL last year if you break it down to tackles per play. He took less snaps than Johnson and yet had only 2 less tackles and more sacks. He took less than half the snaps of Freere and yet had on 14 fewer tackles and as many sacks. I would say Reump and McDonough(more TFL and sacks than any DMac DL last year) this year are better on the interior than Frere and Johnson last year. We just don't have a Lyle at DE. Oops, Lyle, Reump, and Mcdonough aren't DMac players.

No matter how you shake it. Part of our lack of depth/talent fals on the shoulders of DMac as well as chizdick.

 

[tazclone]

These are great points, and echo my thoughts. We need to do something different, that other teams aren't used to, and right now, everyone is used to the spread.

I think this era would be a great time to go back to the offenses we ran under Loney, with allot of motion. I miss seeing JJ or Lane go in motion behind Sage and Seneca. That look forced the defense to defend allot of different angles.

Also allowed receivers to get off the ball against press defence. iowa does this well with DJK and MCNutt. They defintiely aren't speed burners but they use motion to get separation

 

[tazclone]

Twelve months ago we were not having this conversation. Three skunkings have changed our attitude.

Inthink Coach Herman needs to work on plays that definitely get five yards on first down. No more bullcrap stopped at the line of scrimmage on first down.

Time to go back to Money. He looks ready to roll and do much better.

BS. Some of us have said the same thing since the iowa game last year. I don't even take into account the Utah and OU games. They mean nothing as far as I am concerned. IMO- Herman has called one good game and that was TT. That is the only game,that I can remmber, where he has used the whole field effectively. Middle, perimeter, deep, intermediate, etc. He used the whole field.

 

[CYinPA]

I'm very familiar with ISU history, and what you fail to recognize is that there isn't an offensive philosophy that can be successful against top ten opponents with the talent that we currently have.

Personally, it is telling that your defense of the offense's philosophy must assume that people are basing the criticism off of a few games against Top-10 talent. There is a larger sample size than that. I would also say these are thoughts on the fad of the spread in general, and not simply because my favorite team is attempting to use it.

We have largely always been out talented. That is exactly the issue. What results have you seen that indicate this offense helps to overcome this issue? If we are going to need to wait until this offense has more talent than the opposition, or even to be close like MU and Ok St, it is not the offense for this situation.

My comment about not being familiar with ISU football was meant to imply that we have seen teams far more "out-talented" have much greater success on offense. I am not as bearish on the talent as others. Last year it is possible there were 4 NFL linemen on the OL. This year there may be 2 (Lamaak will get a shot). An outstanding rb(s) by ISU standards. A TE with NFL ability. WRs and QB's that had more success as freshmen.

It no doubt could be a "fit" issue, but given this, when will it ever be a good fit at ISU? If it is as easy as a better QB, it may work- if you can find that QB, which must not be that easy given the staff has chosen to go with AA. Also, if it takes so much time going so far backwards, is it the right offense to bring to ISU...if I told you I am going to make you endure living very poor, and the payback is just to get back to your previous means, would you do it?

 

[CloneIce]

Personally I think Mcfarland was doing a better job. Our offense has regressed or stayed about the same as it was under Mcfarland when many of the same players were two years younger.

I see some good things out of Herman's offense though, just not sure he is doing a good enough job of running an offense that takes advantage of his team's (and QBs) strengths while shielding their weaknesses.

 

[CloneIce]

I never thought McFarland was a bad coordinator or coach. He was getting better every game IMO.
I still have faith in all the coaches on this staff. Wayyy too early not to.

Agreed. Mcfarland did a pretty good job (especially in comparison to Cotton and Brickey) with the offense, especially in rebuilding that decimated offensive line.

Bolt... not so much.

 

[CYinPA]

BS. Some of us have said the same thing since the iowa game last year. I don't even take into account the Utah and OU games. They mean nothign as far aas I am concerned. MO- Herman has called one good game and that was TT. That is the only game,that I can remmber, where he has used the whole field effectively. Middle, perimeter, deep, intermediate, etc. He used the whole field.

I agree.
I hate that people always assume that because you were not hastily posting concerns from the very beginning, you did not have them and are being reactionary.

If anything, it may show that these concerns are coming from those that understand the importance of giving it time and biting the tongue. Perhaps our improvement is exponential, and it is still too early. But speaking for myself, the fact that they are now coming forth indicates the strong nature of the struggles and concern.

 

[tazclone]

Most of our current players were recruited to run a different offensive system. That's a really big part of it.

That said, I'd like to see Herman play to the strengths of the guys we have a little more. Arnaud is a much better passer out of the play action, and rolling to his right (just like Stanzi), but we don't do a lot of it. A-Rob is great in space, but we almost never throw him screens. We have an ex-QB @ WR in Reynolds, and not once have we attempted a reverse pass with him this year.

I feel every week like Herman leaves something on the table, but we shouldn't calling for his head until he fails with his own players.

Best post in this whole damn thread!

1. It is unfair to judge Herman until he has his players in place. I am not a fan of his but I still know he deserves time.
2. Herman does not do what he says we need to do. He does not utilize space and he does not take what the defense gives him. IMO-these don't rely on talent one bit. Hence, I am not a fan but again takign a wait and see approach.
3. Two ways to build a program.. implement systems and get your players for that system or tweak the sytems to fit the players. Neither is right or wrong. Most teams that have long term success have a system and stick with it making minor adjustments
4. Player development will be huge. It is obvious that we are redshirting a ton of players and think that we need Jrs, Srs and RsSRs in order to compete. My biggest issue is player development on the offensive side of the ball. We have not seen one player improve from last year to this year. We have seen plenty of players regress. and that is taking competition into account.

 

[tazclone]

Personally I think Mcfarland was doing a better job. Our offense has regressed or stayed about the same as it was under Mcfarland when many of the same players were two years younger.

I see some good things out of Herman's offense though, just not sure he is doing a good enough job of running an offense that takes advantage of his team's (and QBs) strengths while shielding their weaknesses.

This is what bothers me most. We are completely relying on developing players and working with upper classmen to ensure our success. Yet, we have seen no player development on offense. As a matter of act, I think we could argue that most have regressed. I cannot think of one player on offense that is better than they were last year. And I am taking into account the teams we have played.

 

[tazclone]

Agreed. Mcfarland did a pretty good job (especially in comparison to Cotton and Brickey) with the offense, especially in rebuilding that decimated offensive line.

Bolt... not so much.

+1

 

[mcblogerson]

The only good thing I remember about Macfarland was the magic wand he waived over the Oline Dmac left us and the one CPR inherited. That was pretty impressive.

Watching him send plays in late resulting in delay of game penalties in the red zone was torture. Terrible play caller, great line coach. Plus he gave Mangino and the Orange a run for their money.

 

[kcdc4isu]

Best post in this whole damn thread!

1. It is unfair to judge Herman until he has his players in place. I am not a fan of his but I still know he deserves time.
2. Herman does not do what he says we need to do. He does not utilize space and he does not take what the defense gives him. IMO-these don't rely on talent one bit. Hence, I am not a fan but again takign a wait and see approach.
3. Two ways to build a program.. implement systems and get your players for that system or tweak the sytems to fit the players. Neither is right or wrong. Most teams that have long term success have a system and stick with it making minor adjustments
4. Player development will be huge. It is obvious that we are redshirting a ton of players and think that we need Jrs, Srs and RsSRs in order to compete. My biggest issue is player development on the offensive side of the ball. We have not seen one player improve from last year to this year. We have seen plenty of players regress. and that is taking competition into account.

And at what D1 school do you and CYinPA coach at? You must be coaches as you have all the answers! You have players with the third coach in their college carrier and a complete new offense, playing three teams from the top 25 and you expect big victories?

 

[CYinPA]

Best post in this whole damn thread!

1. It is unfair to judge Herman until he has his players in place. I am not a fan of his but I still know he deserves time.
2. Herman does not do what he says we need to do. He does not utilize space and he does not take what the defense gives him. IMO-these don't rely on talent one bit. Hence, I am not a fan but again takign a wait and see approach.
3. Two ways to build a program.. implement systems and get your players for that system or tweak the sytems to fit the players. Neither is right or wrong. Most teams that have long term success have a system and stick with it making minor adjustments
4. Player development will be huge. It is obvious that we are redshirting a ton of players and think that we need Jrs, Srs and RsSRs in order to compete. My biggest issue is player development on the offensive side of the ball. We have not seen one player improve from last year to this year. We have seen plenty of players regress. and that is taking competition into account.

I too agree with this. Herman deserves more time to prove people with concerns like me wrong. My only disagreement is with #3. I think there is a right way, and it depends on the situation. My personal opinion is that at a rebuilding ISU, where a game or two means the difference between bowling and not bowling, going through the pain and costs of implementing the spread, is not worth the pay-off.

 

[Cyhart]

Most of our current players were recruited to run a different offensive system. That's a really big part of it.

That said, I'd like to see Herman play to the strengths of the guys we have a little more. Arnaud is a much better passer out of the play action, and rolling to his right (just like Stanzi), but we don't do a lot of it. A-Rob is great in space, but we almost never throw him screens. We have an ex-QB @ WR in Reynolds, and not once have we attempted a reverse pass with him this year.

I feel every week like Herman leaves something on the table, but we shouldn't calling for his head until he fails with his own players.

While I understand that to a point, I'm also beginning to get tired of it.
So Money, Sed Johnson, A-Rob, Darius Darks, etc all dont have the ability to run a spread offense? They are just incapable of it? I dont buy it.
Now, maybe Im completely wrong. I'll concede that. I dont know.
It just seems like these guys are all upper-level athletes and they should be able to run whatever offense is in place.

 

[jdoggivjc]

I think most Cyclone fans agree.
My issue is that there have been 2 classes to get guys that could keep our offense from being horrid. These are not linemen that need years to develop, and I am not expecting All-Conference play- what is going to change? Imo, maybe this indicates how much this is on AA.

Although I am concerned not much will change, I do think we are seeing a different WR being recruited in this and last years class. This change may get the offense back to average. However, if it takes 4 years just to get back to where the offense was, is it really the right choice of offense philosophically?

Another issue is roster management. The aforementioned apparent WR development and/or transition that needs to occur to achieve familiar average results, plus the need for simply more WR, is at the cost of scholarships elsewhere. We know the importance and need for a strong linemen development program is greater than any other position. This too takes numbers. The need of this offensive philosophy to retool the WR position not only creates a lag in offensive performance, but a subsequent cost & challenge to the lines.
A more traditional offense requires you have great success at Oline personnel development. This offense has added WR and QB to that list. Not only do I question the feasibility of this, but the optimality given the unnecessary lag time.

Here's the thing you're completely discounting, though - just how many of those recruits that CPR/Herman realistically have a chance at getting are truly going to be ready to play their first year in the system? Probably none of them, because the kind of recruit that CPR/Herman realistically is going to be able to land is going to need several years of development before they're ready to play at any capacity in the Big 12, whether it's on the OL, RB, WR, or on defense. CPR/Herman just isn't going to get many of those "readymade" BCS players you insist should be helping us win games after 1-2 years simply because CPR/Herman isn't going to be able to land those kinds of players until CPR proves he can win by developing LESSER players, which takes MUCH LONGER than 1-2 years to do. This isn't D-I basketball - you can't build a well-oiled, stable machine at a school like ISU in just 3 years (I think it's debatable in basketball as well, but at least I can see a case for the argument). Not when CPR first has to prove that he can develop lesser talent into winners - and the fruits of that kind of labor doesn't start showing up until 4-5 years into a tenure. You don't give CPR, Herman, and Burnham until 2014-15 to right this ship, or any other ISU football coach at least 4-5 years, you're never going allow a stable situation to be built that can prove that talent can be developed.

THAT'S why you don't seriously judge the job that CPR, Herman, or Burnham have done after 1.5 years. Obviously there is room for questioning, but saying that Herman sucks after 1.5 years is totally jumping the shark. The guy didn't forget how to coach - and he wouldn't have built the offense at Rice that he did if he didn't know how to coach. It's just going to take longer than 1.5 years to get the talent in here to be competitive.

And if you can't wait 3-4 more years for regular winning, then perhaps it's time to find a different bandwagon to jump on, because football is never going to be that easy at ISU.

 

[tazclone]

And at what D1 school do you and CYinPA coach at? You must be coaches as you have all the answers! You have players with the third coach in their college carrier and a complete new offense, playing three teams from the top 25 and you expect big victories?

Learn to read. Then get back to me

 

[Tre4ISU]

Here's the thing you're completely discounting, though - just how many of those recruits that CPR/Herman realistically have a chance at getting are truly going to be ready to play their first year in the system? Probably none of them, because the kind of recruit that CPR/Herman realistically is going to be able to land is going to need several years of development before they're ready to play at any capacity in the Big 12, whether it's on the OL, RB, WR, or on defense. CPR/Herman just isn't going to get many of those "readymade" BCS players you insist should be helping us win games after 1-2 years simply because CPR/Herman isn't going to be able to land those kinds of players until CPR proves he can win by developing LESSER players, which takes MUCH LONGER than 1-2 years to do. This isn't D-I basketball - you can't build a well-oiled, stable machine at a school like ISU in just 3 years (I think it's debatable in basketball as well, but at least I can see a case for the argument). Not when CPR first has to prove that he can develop lesser talent into winners - and the fruits of that kind of labor doesn't start showing up until 4-5 years into a tenure. You don't give CPR, Herman, and Burnham until 2014-15 to right this ship, or any other ISU football coach at least 4-5 years, you're never going allow a stable situation to be built that can prove that talent can be developed.

THAT'S why you don't seriously judge the job that CPR, Herman, or Burnham have done after 1.5 years. Obviously there is room for questioning, but saying that Herman sucks after 1.5 years is totally jumping the shark. The guy didn't forget how to coach - and he wouldn't have built the offense at Rice that he did if he didn't know how to coach. It's just going to take longer than 1.5 years to get the talent in here to be competitive.

And if you can't wait 3-4 more years for regular winning, then perhaps it's time to find a different bandwagon to jump on, because football is never going to be that easy at ISU.

This word "realistically." What is it all about exactly?

 

[CYdTracked]

I'm not going to question Herman yet, too early in the system to be doing that when he's had to make do with what they inheritied. I will say I don't understand how we can't turn 5 yard passes into first downs more like so many teams seem to do against us. Taking a few more shots down the field would probably set those plays up more too.

 

[CYinPA]

And at what D1 school do you and CYinPA coach at? You must be coaches as you have all the answers! You have players with the third coach in their college carrier and a complete new offense, playing three teams from the top 25 and you expect big victories?

One message board coach claiming the false authority fallacy as a rebuttal to another message board poster is laughable.

Here is a real rebuttal: the large cost of putting players through their third offense in their college career just to eventually get the same results is exactly why there is concern if this was the right offense. NO ONE is basing anything exclusively off of OU, Utah, or Iowa.