Hoiberg the TO bully

[inCyteful]

Caption this photo...

Yo, don't poke me in the eye, bro'!

 

[Clonefan94]

This. At times, Hoibergs lack of calling a timeout drives me nuts. However, I have learned to not question Hoiball.

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I just tell myself that if Fred had his way, there would never be a clock stoppage, because that works in our favor. To call a time out, only gives the other team a rest and we don't want to do that.

 

[Cyclonepride]

He's good, bordering on very good, however calling him elite is extremely premature. There are maybe 8-10 proven "elite" coaches int the country. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

And YES, every coach makes mistakes. This particular thread was about how well Hoiberg conserves timeouts, which (as pointed out) is utterly absurd. It's crazy how people get so easily offended when addressing a topic and supporting that particular argument with facts.

The Hoiberg police are on full alert.

Fred is mentioned as a top college basketball coach and the NBA is begging for him. So yes, elite.

 

[isutrevman]

LOL, no. While Hoiberg makes excellent use of timeouts on the offensive end of the floor, as in he usually draws up sets with good results, his usage of them is quite poor. Often he refuses to call timeouts when they should be called and hoards them for late in the game. While that worked out for us today, it's typically a poor approach.

One of Fred's flaws is that he is often reactionary rather than being proactive. I love coaches that anticipate momentum swings and call timeouts BEFORE the damage is done (especially on the road). Fred has a penchant of letting teams roll off 6-8 + points before calling them, and/or letting refusing to call one when we get trapped (before the TO happens).

Admittedly I'm a critic of Fred's in-game management, particularly late in games. Even today he inexcusably left McKay in on inbound sequences, and didn't keep Long on Taylor (Long was doing a much better job of keeping Taylor in front of him) once the game got under 4 minutes. For every game such as this one where having TOs at the end was beneficial, there are 2 others where he's wasted opportunities to control the game only to have worthless TOs left at the end of the game.

In this particular case having 4 TOs down the stretch was a result of the team playing OUSTANDING basketball for most of the 2nd half. It really had nothing to do with Fred (and a conscious decision to conserve or take them).

Are you saying he should call a timeout every time the other team scores more than one basket in a row? Basketball is a game of runs. Hoiberg lets these runs happen without panicking and calling meaningless timeouts. I, for one, like having the extra timeouts at the end of the game.

 

[isutrevman]

Records? What support do records bring for timeout management? Absolutely zero.

One of the most egregious misuse of timeouts I've ever seen cam at AFH a few years ago when McLemore banked in the 3. In the last minute or minute and a half of that game, Ejim (I believe) had a crucial TO in which Hoiberg failed to utilize a timeout to preserve possesion, despite having 3. After the crowd had went nuts in sending the game into OT, McLemore hits a 3 to start it. This should have been another IMMEDIATE timeout, instead Fred waits to go NINE down in OT on the ROAD before using one of his 3 remaining timeouts. While this is one of his worst offenses, it's a demonstration of the type of TO management Fred has maintained during games. The game at West Virginia was another example of poor TO usage down the stretch (going off of memory).

Are you suggesting Hoiberg not calling a TO resulted in McLemore banking in the 3? How any TO did we have in the overtime?

We also beat West Virginia, so.....

 

[Cyfan1843]

LOL, no. While Hoiberg makes excellent use of timeouts on the offensive end of the floor, as in he usually draws up sets with good results, his usage of them is quite poor. Often he refuses to call timeouts when they should be called and hoards them for late in the game. While that worked out for us today, it's typically a poor approach.

One of Fred's flaws is that he is often reactionary rather than being proactive. I love coaches that anticipate momentum swings and call timeouts BEFORE the damage is done (especially on the road). Fred has a penchant of letting teams roll off 6-8 + points before calling them, and/or letting refusing to call one when we get trapped (before the TO happens).

Admittedly I'm a critic of Fred's in-game management, particularly late in games. Even today he inexcusably left McKay in on inbound sequences, and didn't keep Long on Taylor (Long was doing a much better job of keeping Taylor in front of him) once the game got under 4 minutes. For every game such as this one where having TOs at the end was beneficial, there are 2 others where he's wasted opportunities to control the game only to have worthless TOs left at the end of the game.

In this particular case having 4 TOs down the stretch was a result of the team playing OUSTANDING basketball for most of the 2nd half. It really had nothing to do with Fred (and a conscious decision to conserve or take them).

These are the type of guys Fred likes to coach against and usually his team runs them off the court.

 

[isutrevman]

ZRF is the type of fan that will be calling for Hoiberg's head if we make the NCAA tournament 10 straight years, then miss it once.

 

[psyclone51]

I get as frustrated with self-appointed experts like ZRF as anyone else. But the facts really do speak for themselves. Fred in most years has brought the team to higher levels in the B12 than even his fellow coaches expect, given the talent he starts with. But most critically, Fred coaches for the season, not just for the individual game. Of course, individual wins are crucial to success but Fred's greatest attribute as a coach is that he has a whole other layer to his approach to the game. Not only does he strive to win individual games, but he is also striving to have the team - and the individual players - ready for the tournament. So, he does things that mystify some, but look at how his teams often peak at the right time. So, yep, my vote is for elite. A two thumbs down for ZRF.

 

[IAStubborn]

He's good, bordering on very good, however calling him elite is extremely premature. There are maybe 8-10 proven "elite" coaches int the country. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

And YES, every coach makes mistakes. This particular thread was about how well Hoiberg conserves timeouts, which (as pointed out) is utterly absurd. It's crazy how people get so easily offended when addressing a topic and supporting that particular argument with facts.

The Hoiberg police are on full alert.

no this is dumb. Critique his timeout strategy...fine. but to say he isn't one of America's Elite coaches is asinine. He could have just about any open coaching job in America and would be at the top of every list. That is elite. Your confusing elite with accomplished.

 

[IAStubborn]

After a little sleuthing I think I figured out who ZRF is....

 

[gocubs2118]

The way some coaches use timeouts just boggles my mind. For instance, Barnes today used two timeouts in the second half when the next whistle would of been a media timeout. It's like, what the **** are you doing. I mean, I know we were kicking your *** at the time but that's just a lousy way to use timeouts.

 

[jdoggivjc]

He's good, bordering on very good, however calling him elite is extremely premature. There are maybe 8-10 proven "elite" coaches int the country. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

And YES, every coach makes mistakes. This particular thread was about how well Hoiberg conserves timeouts, which (as pointed out) is utterly absurd. It's crazy how people get so easily offended when addressing a topic and supporting that particular argument with facts.

The Hoiberg police are on full alert.

I think you're about the only person around that doesn't think Hoiberg is an elite coach. Every single analyst out there considers him an elite coach. A coach's name isn't connected to virtually every single NBA coaching job in the offseason if that coach isn't elite. Even most KU fans think Hoiberg is an elite coach (so much so that, in their "full-of-themselves"ness, they think when when Self moves on he's going to take the KU job when it's offered to him).

Keep trying, son. But your trolling sucks.

 

[ahaselhu]

This paper by the head Depauw coach (at least at the time), sums it up perfectly. Assuming that you don't: foul in the act of shooting a 3, or commit some other egregious error, the percentages heavily support, in terms of percentage of outcomes, fouling in those situations.

In our particular situation we were a poor defensive team, and a poor perimeter defensive team at that. Kansas had a player on the floor that was making everything in site. While he was lucking in making the particular 3, the fact still stands that the odds were much better had we fouled.

Had we been a good perimeter defensive team, such as a Syracuse (a historically lengthy perimeter team) and facing a team with poor perimeter shooters I'd be all for defending in that situation. In our case, our strengths, weaknesses, and the statistical event outcomes ABSOLUTELY pointed to fouling in that situation. I don't even think it's debatable.

Edit: forgot to link it : http://www.depauw.edu/ath/mbasket/images/up3.pdf

I read through this article, and while it has some valid math, most of the numbers used are pulled out of thin air, and nowhere near all circumstances are covered, especially if you're talking about fouling with 7 seconds to go (way too much time IMO). To top it off, his evidence was that he lost 3 times when not fouling, and is 6-0 when he does foul. Way too small of a sample size for any conclusion to be reached.

Some situations not covered:
- Miss first, make 2nd (with 7 seconds, still plenty of time to foul, or generate turnover.)
- Fouled in act of made 3. FT missed and offensive rebound and put back to lose
- Chances of being called for intentional foul

Randomly chosen percentages
- 5% of the time the team that is down doesn't get a shot off
- 20% chance of making 3 to tie
- 2% chance of fouling in the act of shooting 3
- FT shooter makes 67% of free throws on average
- 10% chance of making 3 when fouled
- Always assuming that after fouling team regains the ball with a lead, the game is over.
- 20% chance of FT team rebounding the 2nd shot miss.
- 45% chance of scoring after offensive rebound

There are a number of these that I'd disagree with as being low. After choosing different percentages and accounting for situations not originally covered, I could reasonably get the percentage as high as 24% chance of going to overtime and a 4% chance of losing outright. Even then I think some of the numbers I chose could be on the low side.

I would still argue that it is situational, and in the event of a toss-up I would let the players decide the outcome rather than over-coach.

 

[Cyclonesince78]

You guys are paying a lot of attention to a troll's comments. Jelly hawk fan.

 

[andybernard]

Hey ZRF, in high school I had a teacher like you. Just wanted to play devil's advocate and argue with everyone for the sake of arguing and trying to look cool.

Call Fred very good, call him elite, it really doesn't matter. The fact is, ZRF is an idiot.

 

[SeventhSon]

He's good, bordering on very good, however calling him elite is extremely premature. There are maybe 8-10 proven "elite" coaches int the country. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

You might want to tell HOF-er Larry Brown that...

If you played for a Mike Krzyzewski or Bill Self or John Calipari or Tad Boyle or Fred Hoiberg, when you get to NBA level, you’re ready to play.

http://collegesportsblog.dallasnews...ly-disagrees-with-mavs-owner-mark-cuban.html/

 

[32Cyclone Fan]

Fred likes to press the pace and keep pressure on the opponent by scoring. I love it. It is the future of how basketball should be played. My beef with the game of basketball is that it rewards fouling. That doesn't make sense to me. I'd rather have it like hockey where you actually penalize the player the first time not the fifth time they foul.

But hey, it's the game, and how it is designed so I will live with it. I'd love at a minimum a 24 second shot clock.

At least a 30 second shot clock. Even the college women's game has a 30 second shot clock.

 

[TOFB4ISU]

and somewhat related theme, it took nearly 26-minutes to finish the final three mins of the game. The VCU game before us made me miss nearly 7-minutes of our game because of the timeouts and fouling.
Extending the game is getting really obnoxious and frustrating; the bonus+ fouls haven't really had the impact.

Maybe there should be some kind of triple bonus, although not sure what. Three FTs?

 

[Rural]

Messages boards-you gotta love'm

 

[kcdc4isu]

LOL, no. While Hoiberg makes excellent use of timeouts on the offensive end of the floor, as in he usually draws up sets with good results, his usage of them is quite poor. Often he refuses to call timeouts when they should be called and hoards them for late in the game. While that worked out for us today, it's typically a poor approach.

One of Fred's flaws is that he is often reactionary rather than being proactive. I love coaches that anticipate momentum swings and call timeouts BEFORE the damage is done (especially on the road). Fred has a penchant of letting teams roll off 6-8 + points before calling them, and/or letting refusing to call one when we get trapped (before the TO happens).

Admittedly I'm a critic of Fred's in-game management, particularly late in games. Even today he inexcusably left McKay in on inbound sequences, and didn't keep Long on Taylor (Long was doing a much better job of keeping Taylor in front of him) once the game got under 4 minutes. For every game such as this one where having TOs at the end was beneficial, there are 2 others where he's wasted opportunities to control the game only to have worthless TOs left at the end of the game.

In this particular case having 4 TOs down the stretch was a result of the team playing OUSTANDING basketball for most of the 2nd half. It really had nothing to do with Fred (and a conscious decision to conserve or take them).

And at what Division 1 succesful program do you coach at?