Do you think it will be easier to teach Neal to grow 7 inches and put on 15 pounds before the season or do you think it would be easier to teach Irving the right technique to the point where he can contribute?
Freshmen making an impact?
- Thread starter cy4prez7
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It has been said that he shut down his recruiting when he committed to us and he was approached by several BCS teams after his senior year and he said not interested. The kid wants to be a Cyclone...I know hard to believe.
The fact you have to teach Iriving how to play, and not Neal, is exactly why Iriving is unlikely to play. Which would you think is more ready to play, the 245 pound senior DE that knows how to play, or the 250 pound guy that as you admit, needs teaching?
You are completely missing the point. No one is arguing the long-term potential is not greater for Irving compared to Neal, or anyone else on the roster.
I think we are on different pages. And to be honest, I don't think Neal has ever really played at that high of a level in the Big 12 even with all that amazing technique he must have learned in the past few years.
I'm saying that our team lacks size that he has. Just like our offense last year lacked a super quick playmaker like Shontrelle Johnson. He might not have been the best pass blocker, or the best receiver out of the backfield. He may not have known the entire playbook. I don't know.
But he didnt bring explosiveness that we didn't have, and he played. And he had an impact.
He doesn't have to be polished to play on special teams and block kicks. Anything else is pure gravy.
Technique is more important in Irving's case.
Clearly we are on different pages. You are actualizing Irving's great potential too soon. It is no doubt tempting to think we found someone so superior athletically they could come off the street and play ahead of guys that have trained for years to play DE in the Big 12. Unfortunately, he does not have that size or strength yet, especially if he lacks technique. The fact Neal, at a weight comparable to Iriving (listed at 230) and better technique, does not play sufficiently puts a hole in your contention.
Iriving is a lot longer than Neal, which if used properly (technique) makes him better at the same weight.
If CPR played Knott and Klein as true frosh on special teams, he'll play Irving on ST. As long as he (and all the other luminaries of the class) get qualified.
If David can pick up enough technique to add to the pass rush upon occasion (even a couple plays a game), I don't really think that Wally is going to leave a long-armed, athletic 6'7" kid sit on the bench.
I guess agree to disagree. It isn't like our current DEs have done anything to warrant being untouchable when it comes to the 2 deeps.
And I'm not saying he won't redshirt. There is a big chance he will. I'm just saying at that size the reason he isn't starting is technique, which will take a long time to perfect. His raw size allows him to be able to contribute early if it is really needed. Even if he doesn't have good technique.
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If Irving is talented enough to be in the NFL after his junior year like someone said, he is athletic enough to start next year. Its not like we have a bunch of future Pros there, especially with not knowing how long Lattimer will be suspended. Also, you can get away with raw ability in college football.
Yes, redshirting him is obviously the best option for him and the future of the Cyclones. Being able to redshirt every freshman would make them better, but that doesn't mean you can/have to.
Yes, redshirting him is obviously the best option for him and the future of the Cyclones. Being able to redshirt every freshman would make them better, but that doesn't mean you can/have to.
Also, I'm not saying he will start next year at all.. I honestly don't know how athletic he really is. I've heard hes pretty talented, which is very encouraging given his size.
If he plays only a few meaningless snaps, he should have been redshirted. Playing LBs like Knott and Klein on ST is different than Irving.
The message could have been distorted, but coaches have indicated it is likely an athletic long-armed kid could sit on the bench.
Then you are saying what I have been saying: it is likely Irving will redshirt because although his length is great, and potential for size even better, it is not enough to overcome being a novice at technique.
Our current DE's do not need to be untouchable, they just need to be better than Irving (has not done anything to play ahead of them).
Correct but our current DEs have done nothing to warrant being better than Irving. Wally said DI needs a lot of work but guess what every DE on the two deep needs a lot of work. We were at best adequate at DE. Plus DE is about the easiest positions to learn in football.
I guess what I'm saying is that if he can help the team next year play him, because he may not be around as a fifth year senior. Watch his video, 6-7 kids don't move that well. Good coaching could have him starting by the end of the season.
Then you have two points which slightly contradict each other. Your other point:
His raw size allows him to be able to contribute early if it is really needed. Even if he doesn't have good technique
His raw size? What size is that? He is listed at 230.
There are 24 recruits that could contribute early if it is really needed.
Lifer said:
Sure they have, certainly more than Irving.
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I think around signing day one of the coaches said Irving was already up to 250. I'm not saying he'll play, but he could easily be 260-265 by the fall. Thing is, he'll still probably look skinny. :drool:
I guess when I think about this, this staff has shown a tendency to put experience on the field and then in peoples second year they jump in really quickly. Guys like Reeves, Knott, Klein, it looks like Washington, perhaps George and Bennett. I think they know that the unit must play smart. DE is a different position because it is about making plays moreso than not letting plays happen, but still, I don't know that you waste a year for a guy who may or may not help on third down.
I don't think he's much like ARob. ARob had some wiggle in his game. Granted not much, but a little. And he's a bit faster than Standard, I think. After all, ARob set a Minn. high school record in the 200 meters, something a lot of people forget when discussing him. I know there's not much call for 200 meter runs in football, but it does show he has good raw speed.
When I compared Standard to Rutland, it was a compliment. I thought Rutland had a chance to be a really good back for us and rush for 1,000 or more in a season until he got hurt. Rutland had deceptive speed (Standard in spades) and wasn't one to make many moves. He was a one-cut-and-go type (which I think also describes Standard) and then he just ran as fast as he could.
ARob used a burst to get through the hole and made more moves while running than Rutland or Standard. Subtle moves, but moves just the same. I'd describe ARob as a scatback. I don't think Standard is a scatback. The best term I can think of to describe him is a slasher, which was what Rutland was.
Rutland ran more upright than Standard, so that's where the comparison ends. Standard runs lower to the ground, has a lower center of gravity and runs behind his pads better than Rutland did.
Of course, that's just my opinion and someone who actually knows what they're talking about might not agree with me.
