Drunk Driving and Fake Science

[ArgentCy]

I thought this story was interesting and also very relevant to this audiance. I know we like to have a few Busch Lattes (or are they out now?) and I know you all don't live in Ames.

https://www.aier.org/article/drunk-driving-and-fake-science/

Original large NYT article. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/03/...tion=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

So it’s actually mind blowing – or maybe once you hear this it will seem incredibly obvious – that the New York Times has published a massive investigation that shows that the science behind the breathalyzer is bogus. Tens of thousands of arrests have been wrong. Cases are being thrown out around the country. The company that makes the machines for the police stations won’t share its technology or submit to a serious scientific review of its technology.

This is a classic case of the dangers of scientism in the service of state-based justice. Put on the lab coat, sell the government a fancy machine, harass people with unending intimidation, and the result is vast injustice based on bad science. Citizens themselves have no recourse. This has been going on for decades in the United States and yet we are only now finding out about it.

 

[Dr.bannedman]

You are ignoring content by this member.

 

[Remo Gaggi]

Troy Davis was innocent!

 

[isufbcurt]

The Weekly had a show about this Sunday night. Really eye opening and fascinating. I don't really feel bad for drunk drivers but people are being convicted who aren't technically drunk do to incorrect algorythms, calibrating and rounding up.

In a case in Mass or Maryland a new officer assigned to the breathalyzer, after only 2 days in the new position, found the breathalyzer had been incorrectly calibrated for as far back as 10 years. Because of this 40,000ish cases are being reopened and potentially thrown out.

I also learned the breathalyzer they give you along side the road isn't admissible in court, only the breathalyzer administered at the office is admissible.

 

[bawbie]

has published a massive investigation that shows that the science behind the breathalyzer is bogus.

This is a grossly inaccurate summary of the findings. The science behind the device is fine - they are not used properly - or in most cases not calibrated correctly.

 

[3TrueFans]

This is a grossly inaccurate summary of the findings. The science behind the device is fine - they are not used properly - or in most cases not calibrated correctly.

Can we ban Argent from the Off-topic forum too, how about we just let him post in the volleyball and women's basketball forums?

 

[Walden4Prez]

Theranos was subjected to a market test. Breathalyzers and Alcotests and so on exist within the apparatus of the state and have thereby been shielded from serious scrutiny.

Bingo

 

[isufbcurt]

This is a grossly inaccurate summary of the findings. The science behind the device is fine - they are not used properly - or in most cases not calibrated correctly.

Well in the story they talked to 2 computer code experts who analyzed the code for one of the brands and noted the coded algorythms were incorrect. The code experts released their report and have been threatened legally by the breathalyzer company if they continue to talk about it. When the reporter pulled out a copy of their report they froze and said they can't discuss it and have to ask her to destroy it immediately. And they were very curious how she actually got a copy of their report.

You should watch The Weekly it was really eye opening.

 

[Dingus]

I thought this story was interesting and also very relevant to this audiance. I know we like to have a few Busch Lattes (or are they out now?) and I know you all don't live in Ames.

https://www.aier.org/article/drunk-driving-and-fake-science/

Original large NYT article. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/03/business/drunk-driving-breathalyzer.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

So it’s actually mind blowing – or maybe once you hear this it will seem incredibly obvious – that the New York Times has published a massive investigation that shows that the science behind the breathalyzer is bogus. Tens of thousands of arrests have been wrong. Cases are being thrown out around the country. The company that makes the machines for the police stations won’t share its technology or submit to a serious scientific review of its technology.

This is a classic case of the dangers of scientism in the service of state-based justice. Put on the lab coat, sell the government a fancy machine, harass people with unending intimidation, and the result is vast injustice based on bad science. Citizens themselves have no recourse. This has been going on for decades in the United States and yet we are only now finding out about it.

Don’t blame the science; the science isnt the problem. It’s an ugly intersection of corporate greed and unethical judicial system.

 

[CloneFan4]

While we're at it the legal limit needs to be increased. .08 (two beers) is ridiculous. Bump up to .12.

 

[Al_4_State]

While we're at it the legal limit needs to be increased. .08 (two beers) is ridiculous. Bump up to .12.

While I generally agree that .08 is low, you'd be surprised at how much you can drink and stay under

https://www.moderation.org/bac/bac-men.html

But the reality is that .08 BAC doesn't increase your inability to operate a vehicle much. It's even crazier when you consider that in many states (including Iowa), the level of punishment for a .081 and a .25 are the exact same, despite there being a massive difference in the danger of the two acts.

 

[jmb]

The Weekly had a show about this Sunday night. Really eye opening and fascinating. I don't really feel bad for drunk drivers but people are being convicted who aren't technically drunk do to incorrect algorythms, calibrating and rounding up.

In a case in Mass or Maryland a new officer assigned to the breathalyzer, after only 2 days in the new position, found the breathalyzer had been incorrectly calibrated for as far back as 10 years. Because of this 40,000ish cases are being reopened and potentially thrown out.

I also learned the breathalyzer they give you along side the road isn't admissible in court, only the breathalyzer administered at the office is admissible.

al·le·go·ry
/ˈaləˌɡôrē/
Learn to pronounce
noun

1. a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.
   "Pilgrim's Progress is an allegory of the spiritual journey"
   
   Similar:
   parable
   
   
   analogy
   analogy between the workings of nature and those of human societies
   
   metaphor
   
   
   symbol
   
   
   emblem
   
   
   story
   
   
   tale
   

 

[iowastatefan1929]

most of the time they dont even breathalyze in the field anymore?
they just breathalyze back at the station?

its all on these 3 subjective tests:
walk-and-turn test [actually tough to pass sober, and i cant pass it if im really tired]
one-leg stand test [actually tough to pass sober]
horizontal gaze nystagmus (HGN) test [seems okay to test alcohol sobriety]
in my opinion the real scam is the dogs, all the police have to say is that the dog hit, whether they did or not and they can search your car. granted i think a case can be made that the police need an edge over the criminals.

 

[ArgentCy]

This is a grossly inaccurate summary of the findings. The science behind the device is fine - they are not used properly - or in most cases not calibrated correctly.

The theory is fine, although as the author stated there are a number of variables. What is not fine is that these companies have not shown how their products even work and are never subject to any scientific review. They may be measuring something entirely different for all we known.

For instance. The 0.08 limit makes the accuracy of these devices very important. And any scientist knows that without knowing the error the measurement is useless. So if the device has an error of say 0.1 then it would be almost useless at least when throwing people in jail. The articles say the companies often claim 0.001 accuracy. That should have to be well proven and not just when brand new.

 

[ArgentCy]

Well in the story they talked to 2 computer code experts who analyzed the code for one of the brands and noted the coded algorythms were incorrect. The code experts released their report and have been threatened legally by the breathalyzer company if they continue to talk about it. When the reporter pulled out a copy of their report they froze and said they can't discuss it and have to ask her to destroy it immediately. And they were very curious how she actually got a copy of their report.

You should watch The Weekly it was really eye opening.

Do you have a link?

 

[ArgentCy]

While I generally agree that .08 is low, you'd be surprised at how much you can drink and stay under

https://www.moderation.org/bac/bac-men.html

But the reality is that .08 BAC doesn't increase your inability to operate a vehicle much. It's even crazier when you consider that in many states (including Iowa), the level of punishment for a .081 and a .25 are the exact same, despite there being a massive difference in the danger of the two acts.

The drop in the allowed limit from 0.10 to 0.08 was nothing more than a money grab.

 

[Rabbuk]

Can we ban Argent from the Off-topic forum too, how about we just let him post in the volleyball and women's basketball forums?

That wouldn't be fair to those 8 posters

 

[Rabbuk]

I feel like if you drink just Uber.

 

[Knownothing]

When I was younger I was totally drunk as crap driving my boat. Got pulled over, pulled into the cops boat. Could barely stand up. I failed all the boat sobriety tests. He gave me the choice to take the breath test. I took it and passed. Blew a .06. I was totally drunk. The cop said "I think you are drunk and you failed the tests but the breathalyzer says otherwise. Have a good day sir. I was like WTF. How did I pass that. I didn't argue. BTW this was at Lake of the Ozarks coming out of party cove.

 

[ArgentCy]

Can we ban Argent from the Off-topic forum too, how about we just let him post in the volleyball and women's basketball forums?

I know thinking is hard. You do know that this website has an ignore feature. It works pretty well.