Loyalty ..... NONE!

[CycoCyclone]

I think the casual fan doesn't understand what happened after CS left, all the recruits left, and KJ is a technical coach, not the elite program builder we needed.

Having only 4 teams in the Big XII hurts.

 

[buf87]

I'd disagree with you there - I assume that's what they're doing with Woiwer/Goettl, but that didn't involve pulling a redshirt. I hope when they pulled Dante's redshirt they did it with a commitment that he'll be our guy for the whole season barring injury or a total meltdown. If we weren't sure about Dante we could have sent one of our non redshirting 141 pounders out against Iowa. It isn't like he was ever going to be the difference in that meet.

Honesty I was completely shocked that Dante's redshirt was pulled for the Iowa meet. I do know that both John and Dante are both going to be competing for the 141 pound spot for another couple years. So at some point somebody is going to sit.

 

[buf87]

What I do know is Dante was a steal of a recruit. Much like Lelund, he was on nobodies top 100-150 seniors list. We signed him this past Spring for little or nothing. I was extremely happy when I heard he committed to us. I forgot all about him until he verballed to us.

 

[enisthemenace]

I don't offer anything new, but will put down what I see:

- 141: Meeks is hurt, which has been mentioned. How badly, I don't know. I would have preferred not to have burned the redshirt here, but it's not without thought or reason. We could have run another 41 out there, which is what I would have preferred, but wrestling Dante against Iowa is not about KJ quitting on John. There is more to this than the OP either knows or is failing to point out on purpose. I'd prefer to give the OP the benefit of the doubt and say the Meeks injury as an unknown when posted

- 157: I have wanted to see Luke succeed for a LONG time. He should a ton of promise a couple of years ago. The fact is, he has not improved since then. In my estimation, he's regressed since then. Is that perceived regression on KJ or Luke himself? I don't know the answer to that, but if KJ feels Woiwor has the best chance to win at 57, I support it, and if Luke proves he's the better option at the Scuffle, I would expect him to be in the lineup going forward. There was no redshirt issue here, so nothing there to fret about

 

[Redman97]

Thanks for all the responses here, Judoka, Buf, and everyone else.

I consider myself a loyal guy, but I don't see what loyalty has to do with putting the most competitive team on the mat. I'm sure the wrestlers know this too.

 

[Judoka]

Its also probably important to note that while the team might not be challenging for titles with the current level of administrative support and coaching staff, we do have a level of support and staff that is very capable of developing individual champions. And that's really important. There's only a handful of staffs that can tell a recruit with a straight face that they can come to their school and get the support they need to become a national champion, and we're one of them.

And a big part of the team issue is due to cache. A school like Penn State or Iowa can get an elite guy for a lot less scholarship money than we can, and Penn State & Ohio State can do it while offering in state tuition to a large pool of recruits. Minnesota can offer in state to recruits from neighboring states, we can't. That helps them. And Cornell doesn't offer direct wrestling scholarships but they find a way to fund their guys. Iowa State is at a big disadvantage compared to the very top tier of teams when it comes to developing a lineup from top to bottom and room depth.

 

[LindenCy]

Its also probably important to note that while the team might not be challenging for titles with the current level of administrative support and coaching staff, we do have a level of support and staff that is very capable of developing individual champions. And that's really important. There's only a handful of staffs that can tell a recruit with a straight face that they can come to their school and get the support they need to become a national champion, and we're one of them.

And a big part of the team issue is due to cache. A school like Penn State or Iowa can get an elite guy for a lot less scholarship money than we can, and Penn State & Ohio State can do it while offering in state tuition to a large pool of recruits. Minnesota can offer in state to recruits from neighboring states, we can't. That helps them. And Cornell doesn't offer direct wrestling scholarships but they find a way to fund their guys. Iowa State is at a big disadvantage compared to the very top tier of teams when it comes to developing a lineup from top to bottom and room depth.

One of the things I love about wrestling is the individual champions. Even when we have a down year, we usually have someone we can root for to do some damage. Last year we had no shot at a team title, but had a handful of guys who made the nationals very interesting.

 

[kingcy]

This is a very good team.

Also PSU had a lot of money to throw at Cael. I have heard that Cael approached PSU, but look at the recruiting area and money available. He also never beat Iowa, but it was closer. Supposedly him and Pollard never saw eye to eye.

Cael had us as a top 5 team, but he left for greener pastures. Not sure who you were going to get to replace him and keep us there.

The Penn State job is a good fit for Cael. IMO even after every thing he did at ISU, the Brands name is still a bigger name in the state of Iowa. Outside the state Cael is bigger. Penn State gave him a better chance to win and stay on top.

 

[Royalclone]

Thanks to all who have posted here. To me this has been a very informational thread. Plus you all weren't ripping each other regarding various opinions.

 

[mikewdm]

Iowa State wrestling fans will just have to keep replaying the 1987 championship in their minds, because I don't see another one coming with the current AD and coach that are in place.

 

[Judoka]

Basically there are two things that would need to happen for ISU to suddenly challenge for the title on a consistent basis.

1. Have Iowa suddenly gain an extra 20 million residents.

2. Have support for the CWC increase to the point where ISU can afford to have a full stable of recognizable (i.e. Varner, Dake, Taylor, and Burroughs type guys) guys at every weight class both for workout partners and as recruiting tools.

 

[buf87]

Michael Moreno supposedly going to stay with CWC next year. CWC is doing a great job fundraising and getting info out to the public. KJ has been getting updates out.

The wrestling room has been expanded. The locker rooms are updated. I sure seems like there is some support for the program.

I think most people that don't think Pollard cares is because he won't fire KJ. He had the terrible year a couple years ago and some inconsistent duals, but seems ready at Nationals.

 

[Judoka]

Michael Moreno supposedly going to stay with CWC next year. CWC is doing a great job fundraising and getting info out to the public. KJ has been getting updates out.

The wrestling room has been expanded. The locker rooms are updated. I sure seems like there is some support for the program.

There is support. Like somebody else posted, we're one of the schools right below that top tier when it comes to funding and facilities. And our coaching staff is pretty good. We have everything in place to produce champion wrestlers. But the 9.9 scholarship limit and the realities of what it costs to bring guys to ISU vs. other schools means it would be very tough for us to get 10 elite guys all in the lineup at once plus have the depth needed to reload every year. We can be competitive to recruit for any wrestler in the country. Just not all of them at once.

We'd have to offer 1/2 a scholarship to a guy from Ohio or Pennsylvania just to equal their costs for walking on at an in state school, that isn't changing no matter who our coach is.

And I wasn't knocking the CWC - they do what they can with the funds available and I'm sure the guys we have help our wrestlers get better. But if they had enough money to bring in name recognition guys they'd be much more of a recruiting tool. Guys who currently would only come to ISU if we offer them a scholarship would be willing to walk on if we had Taylor or Burroughs in the room with them every day.

 

[buf87]

I agree with you Judoka. For the most part Iowa State is going to have to produce those Senior level wrestlers. Ocassionally you can find one like Angel from a school like Indiana and has ties to Iowa. Or develop somebody like Deron Winn, but high school kids don't always know them.

Zeke Jones is a good example. He was probably never going to leave USA freestyle for Iowa State, but did go to his Alma Mater, ASU. And he attracted a hell of a class this year to ASU. They will get to the top 10 quickly.

The next big names are going to be Dake, Taylor and Burroughs. Would like to think Varner would be, but not sure he is as popular as the other 3. Cornell, PSU, and Nebraska are going to try and keep them around as long as possible.

On a sidenote about Zeke Jones, his brother Johnnie Jones wrestled for Iowa State and Harold Nichols and Bobby Douglas was at ASU. The way I understand it, Zeke's room was loaded with Iowa State stuff and was pretty much a lock to Iowa State. Bobby showed up in Michigan at the Jones and might of slept on the couch and convinced Zeke to come to ASU. And the rest is history. Might be parts of the story left out or not quite right, but somewhat accurate

 

[CycloneGrappler]

I am a big fan of both Buf87 and Judoka's opinions. And I agree that the 157 job should go to the best wrestler. But lets remember that Goettle beat Woiwor head to head. However, I can give you the argument that 157 is still up for grabs.

With that said pulling the Red Shirt off of Dante Rodriguez is a bad decision. If you look at his results on a National Level the past two summers including Fargo. You will see that he is not ready to compete in the daily grind of a top tier Div 1 Wrestling program. The true freshmen wrestlers that are competing at top tier programs are all competing to be All-Americans. Dante is not there... He will be lucky to win a match and earn a team point at Nationals for the team. I feel like he could have used that 5th year. (Just my opinion)

Last thing and then I will sit back a read... . I am pretty close to the program. The biggest problem with KJ is the kids do not respect him (70%) ! They favor the assistants and the workouts in the room are BEST when KJ is not involved.... If the team does not respect you then you can't win at the highest level. (those my friends are facts!)

With that said... we have a legitimate shot at winning the Big 12's and its hard to release a coach when they will finish the season in the Top 10. And I think that will happen....

Go Clones....

 

[stretchclone]

I would like to think that our best national powerhouse type sport WAS wrestling. I do not feel that way anymore. We have dropped from the powerhouse status in my opinion. The hawks were always #1 and we were a always #2 or #3. We need a winner to lead us!!

 

[Land Grant]

I am the guy that Judoka refers to who noted that KJ ceiling was probably that of a somewhat above average coach. As I stand now, I am okay, but not wholly satisfied with KJ and could potentially be happier with a different head coach.

Regarding such anonymous "wrestlers don't respect KJ comments," however, I take them with deep suspicion. Fans make such accusations of coaches all the time: mostly when teams seem to be under performing, but also when they are not. I don't know you and your connection to the team; nor am I any sort of insider myself. So I weigh vague claims such as yours against identified endorsements of KJ by people like Varner, Reader, Nickerson, the CWC leadership and so on. Are they lying? Sure its possible, but I don't see it as likely.

Admittedly, the program has had some discontents: Bono, the AZ 125#, and so on. All programs do. KJ has also faced some unreasonable axe grinding on this board, that is apparently about many things, bruised egos and race being front and center. That stuff is trash.

In the end, the best judgment is that of performance on the mat. And that takes me back to thinking that KJ is an above average but not elite coach. He's making ISU better, but slowly. He's making decisions, some good some bad. On the whole, ISU is not on top -- but frankly it hasn't been there since 1987 and more relevantly, since Nichols. That tells me its also a question of the AD and not just the coach. Voila.

I am a big fan of both Buf87 and Judoka's opinions. And I agree that the 157 job should go to the best wrestler. But lets remember that Goettle beat Woiwor head to head. However, I can give you the argument that 157 is still up for grabs.

With that said pulling the Red Shirt off of Dante Rodriguez is a bad decision. If you look at his results on a National Level the past two summers including Fargo. You will see that he is not ready to compete in the daily grind of a top tier Div 1 Wrestling program. The true freshmen wrestlers that are competing at top tier programs are all competing to be All-Americans. Dante is not there... He will be lucky to win a match and earn a team point at Nationals for the team. I feel like he could have used that 5th year. (Just my opinion)

Last thing and then I will sit back a read... . I am pretty close to the program. The biggest problem with KJ is the kids do not respect him (70%) ! They favor the assistants and the workouts in the room are BEST when KJ is not involved.... If the team does not respect you then you can't win at the highest level. (those my friends are facts!)

With that said... we have a legitimate shot at winning the Big 12's and its hard to release a coach when they will finish the season in the Top 10. And I think that will happen....

Go Clones....

 

[CycloneGrappler]

Just for the record I am very close to the program... as Close as you can be with out being an actual wrestler. The one thing I do know is that most of the wrestlers do not care for KJ in the room. His coaching style and negativity is a key factor in their feelings. With that said they all like him as a man! Just not as a leader in the room...

I agree with one thing... Above Average Coach. Certainly not Elite!

I am the guy that Judoka refers to who noted that KJ ceiling was probably that of a somewhat above average coach. As I stand now, I am okay, but not wholly satisfied with KJ and could potentially be happier with a different head coach.

Regarding such anonymous "wrestlers don't respect KJ comments," however, I take them with deep suspicion. Fans make such accusations of coaches all the time: mostly when teams seem to be under performing, but also when they are not. I don't know you and your connection to the team; nor am I any sort of insider myself. So I weigh vague claims such as yours against identified endorsements of KJ by people like Varner, Reader, Nickerson, the CWC leadership and so on. Are they lying? Sure its possible, but I don't see it as likely.

Admittedly, the program has had some discontents: Bono, the AZ 125#, and so on. All programs do. KJ has also faced some unreasonable axe grinding on this board, that is apparently about many things, bruised egos and race being front and center. That stuff is trash.

In the end, the best judgment is that of performance on the mat. And that takes me back to thinking that KJ is an above average but not elite coach. He's making ISU better, but slowly. He's making decisions, some good some bad. On the whole, ISU is not on top -- but frankly it hasn't been there since 1987 and more relevantly, since Nichols. That tells me its also a question of the AD and not just the coach. Voila.

 

[cytopia]

I'd disagree with you there - I assume that's what they're doing with Woiwer/Goettl, but that didn't involve pulling a redshirt. I hope when they pulled Dante's redshirt they did it with a commitment that he'll be our guy for the whole season barring injury or a total meltdown. If we weren't sure about Dante we could have sent one of our non redshirting 141 pounders out against Iowa. It isn't like he was ever going to be the difference in that meet.

This! There was no reason to send Dante out there if theres a chance he's not our guy going forward. Now that KJ has robbed him of a chance to develop for a year he deserves the commitment to be our guy for the whole season. Otherwise he should transfer because KJ isnt doing what is right for him. I believe KJ is clueless when it comes to redshirts and their importance to development. None of our wrestlers are on the level of a guy like Kyle Snyder who does not need a redshirt.

 

[ISU22CY]

Just for the record I am very close to the program... as Close as you can be with out being an actual wrestler. The one thing I do know is that most of the wrestlers do not care for KJ in the room. His coaching style and negativity is a key factor in their feelings. With that said they all like him as a man! Just not as a leader in the room...

I agree with one thing... Above Average Coach. Certainly not Elite!

Can you share what you are to be so close to the program? Actually curious not poking at you... Son on the team? Manager? Student Trainer?