Who is ISU true comp in Big 12 MBB and just who do we think we are?

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cyatheart

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Tcu at the bottom, bunch of teams in the middle, ku at the top. Teams in the middle vary their position based on how they have done recently. For instance, tech and Baylor would have been behind us 10 years ago, not now though. We were ahead of ok state for years, but again not now.

things are cyclical for everyone other than Kansas.
 
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HFCS

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Tournament championships don’t really mean anything other than you got hot for a week at the end of the year.

WV has been in the league less than half the time as ISU.

You can argue ISU challenged Kansas for basically 5 years in the last 25 years. They won 2 Big 12 regular seasons and were within 3 games of Kansas 3 other times. You are vastly overrating how good Iowa State has been in conference.

Even regular season championships I believe our paltry two outright is still #2.

There are more consistent programs but you cannot factually point to a program that has taken more Big 12 hardware away from KU because their isn't one.
 

AllInForISU

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Even regular season championships I believe our paltry two outright is still #2.

There are more consistent programs but you cannot factually point to a program that has taken more Big 12 hardware away from KU because their isn't one.

That’s like saying UTEP is a better basketball program than ISU because they have a national championship and ISU doesn’t.

Just because ISU has 2 conference championships doesn’t mean ISU is in the upper tier of teams.

When ISUs average finish in the league is 7th over the course of 25 years that literally means you are an average to below average program. Top tier programs don’t have those huge dips after their highs. I would agree with you if ISU is coming in second or even third in the conference, but usually they aren’t.
 
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CYEATHAWK

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9, 10, 13, 16. That’s Johnny’s wins in his first 4 years and his teams averaged 67 ppg in that time frame. He made the NCAAs in year 5. McDermott teams had 15, 14, 15, 15 wins and averaged 65 ppg was going to get canned. Johnny would not have lasted past year 4 and I’ll stand by that comment.

Johnny made Michigan a national power. He wasn't just some "gotta get" coming from UNI or UNLV. Johnny showed improvement every year he was here until he made post season his 4th season, and he NCAA his 5th. All GMAC did was make the Morgan haters look like babbling idiots considering Wayne's worst year was 16 wins. Comparing the two is an insult to Johnny.

Now, do you think JP is going to show TJ the door if he goes 9, 10, 13 and 16 his first four years with an NIT his 4th? Because if not then your statement that Johnny wouldn't have seen year 5 in today's world is misguided. You can rest assured that all TJ has to do is show improvement......that's it. He has any kind of success(improvement every year, winning record, conference tourney trophy, post season bid)his first four years he will easily last 5 and probably much more.

ISU men's basketball is better than Steve Prohm's last two seasons and GMAC's entire tenure. If not......then why was the mark set so high for Steve Prohm? Wayne Morgan? Even when they were winning..........it wasn't enough. Now, like 2006.........."gee, are we really a basketball school"? This BS smells of the GMAC years.
 
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AllInForISU

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Johnny made Michigan a national power. He wasn't just some "gotta get" coming from UNI or UNLV. Johnny showed improvement every year he was here until he made post season his 4th season, and he NCAA his 5th. All GMAC did was make the Morgan haters look like babbling idiots considering Wayne's worst year was 16 wins. Comparing the two is an insult to Johnny.

Now, do you think JP is going to show TJ the door if he goes 9, 10, 13 and 16 his first four years with an NIT his 4th? Because if not then your statement that Johnny wouldn't have seen year 5 in today's world is misguided. You can rest assured that all TJ has to do is show improvement......that's it. He has any kind of success(improvement every year, winning record, conference tourney trophy, post season bid)his first four years he will easily last 5 and probably much more.

ISU men's basketball is better than Steve Prohm's last two seasons and GMAC's entire tenure. If not......then why was the mark set so high for Steve Prohm? Wayne Morgan? Even when they were winning..........it wasn't enough. Now, like 2006.........."gee, are we really a basketball school"? This BS smells of the GMAC years.

I think if TJ doesn’t have a good season with a postseason berth by year 4 the noise will be just as intense as it was for Prohm to be fired after the Wigginton year. I doubt he gets fired because he is Jamie’s buddy and will get a longer leash than someone else. Fans were calling for Prohm to be fired the year after Monte, Naz, and Matt left and he had 2 postseason berths and a sweet 16. The way TJ was hired, being the only real candidate, he should be highly scrutinized.
 

CYEATHAWK

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I think if TJ doesn’t have a good season with a postseason berth by year 4 the noise will be just as intense as it was for Prohm to be fired after the Wigginton year. I doubt he gets fired because he is Jamie’s buddy and will get a longer leash than someone else. Fans were calling for Prohm to be fired the year after Monte, Naz, and Matt left and he had 2 postseason berths and a sweet 16. The way TJ was hired, being the only real candidate, he should be highly scrutinized.

I hope you are right about year 4 noise. But after the JP's pods.....I'm not confident. And although Prohm's head wasn't asked for the first two seasons......23/24 wins, sweet sixteen, conference tourney trophy were met with "where are our conference title and deep tourney runs? That is the measure of success". Trust me.....I fought that battle the first two years almost to a game. It would have been stupid for even them to ask for his head then. But nothing was ever good enough. Now, like an old comfy couch....they once again roll out the BB school question. Hilarious if no so sad.
 

AllInForISU

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I hope you are right about year 4 noise. But after the JP's pods.....I'm not confident. And although Prohm's head wasn't asked for the first two seasons......23/24 wins, sweet sixteen, conference tourney trophy were met with "where are our conference title and deep tourney runs? That is the measure of success". Trust me.....I fought that battle the first two years almost to a game. It would have been stupid for even them to ask for his head then. But nothing was ever good enough. Now, like an old comfy couch....they once again roll out the BB school question. Hilarious if no so sad.

To be fair, i don't think anyone had a shot to really succeed as coach after Fred chose to leave ISU. Unless the next coach won a NC it was never going to be good enough.

I really hope TJ does well and I will gladly eat crow if he does. But the original post was what are our comps as a program and for some reason I see fans thinking ISU is in the top tier which I don't believe they are. Kansas State maybe is the closest or maybe Texas Tech. I do think ISU has a higher ceiling than either of them just due to Hilton and the way Iowa rallies around their college sports programs.
 

HFCS

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That’s like saying UTEP is a better basketball program than ISU because they have a national championship and ISU doesn’t.

Just because ISU has 2 conference championships doesn’t mean ISU is in the upper tier of teams.

When ISUs average finish in the league is 7th over the course of 25 years that literally means you are an average to below average program. Top tier programs don’t have those huge dips after their highs. I would agree with you if ISU is coming in second or even third in the conference, but usually they aren’t.

I think you're giving way too much credit to programs that have been bent over by KU, these past few years being the exception.

If their programs were light years better than ISU on average they'd have more hardware and have bothered KU more. There are more consistent programs and Baylor is something special right now, but Texas and OU are not drastically better or they'd have the hardware.

I don't place a gigantic amount of importance on finishing second or third to KU and getting swept on the season by them.
 

wcbsas

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I would have guessed higher as well, and I think that has something to do with the passion of the fan base, and the potential that maybe just missed here and there.

Overall, I still think, from a national perspective, we're probably considered to be in the top half of the conference (or at least mid-pack) for basketball prestige.
Top half?

Kansas, Baylor, Texas, WVU, TTU and Oklahoma all have very good arguments over ISU. Not to mention OSU.
 
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Wally86

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I think if TJ doesn’t have a good season with a postseason berth by year 4 the noise will be just as intense as it was for Prohm to be fired after the Wigginton year. I doubt he gets fired because he is Jamie’s buddy and will get a longer leash than someone else. Fans were calling for Prohm to be fired the year after Monte, Naz, and Matt left and he had 2 postseason berths and a sweet 16. The way TJ was hired, being the only real candidate, he should be highly scrutinized.
Are you suggesting the fans were wrong about wanting Prohm gone after Wiggintons first year? Clearly we could see the players were not being deployed effectively.
 

AllInForISU

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Are you suggesting the fans were wrong about wanting Prohm gone after Wiggintons first year? Clearly we could see the players were not being deployed effectively.

I’m absolutely saying it’s idiotic to call for a head coach to be fired after a sweet 16 and 2 conference tournament titles when the previous coach left the roster top heavy because he just said f it and stopped recruiting. Looking back, Fred had one foot out the door the whole time he was here. Prohm turned out to be over his head, but there is no way you can say you could tell that definitively after three years. Hindsight is 2020 and revisionist history will have people tell you they knew he was a bad coach from the start when in reality they were just pissed TJ didn’t get handed the job when Freddy bolted.
 

Wally86

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Sorry. Enjoyed his first two years while hoping the defense would improve. Year three started the trend of underwhelming defense and rebounding, combined with an offense that depends on having a player that is athletically superior to everybody else. That combined with timeouts after made baskets extinguishing Hilton Magic.

Answer to the thread is no one compares to ISU.
 

NWICY

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"Heightened Expectations"....I AGREE at ISU we are never going to be Baylor and Scott Drew.....or Tx Tech and Chris Beard....

Welp Beard is gone to the well paid coaching grave yard known as Texas. Drew has his stuff together but we will see if he can sustain it. It's not that long ago we used to make fun of his time out usage.
 

NWICY

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Ok...Johnny did not bring ISU even close to the top in the Big 8. Finished above .500 2 times in conference in 14 years and was barely a .500 coach. He wouldn’t have lasted past his 4th year if he was coaching in today’s game. I get his teams were entertaining but to say he had ISU close to the top tier in the Big 8 is a joke. His teams were very much second or third tier in the conference.

Johnny certainly created Hilton Magic and defend home court, I'll take that over Prohm, McDermott etc... 2nd tier I'll agree but certainly not 3rd.
 

CyBobby

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Welp Beard is gone to the well paid coaching grave yard known as Texas. Drew has his stuff together but we will see if he can sustain it. It's not that long ago we used to make fun of his time out usage.
Nobody is making fun of Scott Drew and Baylor now....It would be funny if Baylor could actually beat Undefeated Gonzaga on Monday Night.

btw I AM NOT ADVOCATING THAT ....GO ZAGS!!
 

Die4Cy

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UNC has to make a hard run at Scott Drew before looking at anyone else, right?
 

Cyclad

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Hopefully TJ can be that guy. I think he can, and I like what he's saying and doing so far.
Miscellaneous comments:
I think TJ was a good hire, and I like his staff and recruiting philosophy
McDermott has proven to be an outstanding coach. I cannot understand what happened here
Johnny Orr put us on the map - loved him
Floyd and Eustachy were our best coaches ever
I choose to believe the 2000 team was the best team in the country
I think we are a middle of the pack team in the big12 since Johnny Orr got us “going”
I think Steve Prohm is a good person who was in over his head. He underachieved his talent - when he had it. Poor coach.
The think Beard is a fabulous coach. Watch out for Texas. He will make them tough - culture shock for their players.
The landscape has changed - I am not sure Fred would do as well at ISU now

My expectation for the program:
Be competitive. No 40 point loses. Consistently be about 3-6 in the league, with occasional title contention. Be in the tourney every year. Easy to argue this is too low an expectation - but these are mine.
 

madguy30

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Are you suggesting the fans were wrong about wanting Prohm gone after Wiggintons first year? Clearly we could see the players were not being deployed effectively.

I actually thought he did OK with Wiggs's first year. Young team and beat some good teams to give some hope for the future. Wiggs and Lard had a nice thing going at times.

DJ should have never been PG though.

Then the mismanagement took hold one way or another. From what it sounds like, Lard likely wouldn't have made it anywhere. At some point you have to figure it out.