TJ best coach we have ever had?
- Thread starter CycloneVet
- Start date
I wasn't around for Orr, so I don't know the context and circumstances of the athletic department/basketball program, but I'm a bit surprised that so many people have him clearly #1. A kind of shocking statistic is that he only had 2 winning records in conference play in his 14 years at Iowa State (2 more years of going .500).
I wonder if there might be a few things that give fans a different perception of his era that doesn't completely match his results--his personality of course, plus the fact that there weren't as many games on TV, so fans probably disproportionately remember the home games they went to, where Orr's teams were a lot better than on the road.
Obviously, I don't mean to discredit Orr. I think I would just argue he's the most important coach in Iowa State men's basketball history (as the father of Hilton Magic and making ISU basketball exciting) rather than the best.
I wonder if there might be a few things that give fans a different perception of his era that doesn't completely match his results--his personality of course, plus the fact that there weren't as many games on TV, so fans probably disproportionately remember the home games they went to, where Orr's teams were a lot better than on the road.
Obviously, I don't mean to discredit Orr. I think I would just argue he's the most important coach in Iowa State men's basketball history (as the father of Hilton Magic and making ISU basketball exciting) rather than the best.
And there’s no last night without Orr. We take Hilton Magic for granted, but it doesn’t exist if he didn’t build it. And it took a person that likes the limelight to get us to buy into it.
Dad used to say a great coach can beat you with his players, then turn around and beat you with your players too.
I think Floyd was the best overall coach. Brought in some amazing talent, got a ton out of that talent. Was smart in-game coach too, and had the competitive drive to win. Had he stayed at ISU for 20 years, I think he could have had Bill Self levels of success here.
I'd put Larry next, for the moment, but TJ is right there and is still growing as a coach.
I think Floyd was the best overall coach. Brought in some amazing talent, got a ton out of that talent. Was smart in-game coach too, and had the competitive drive to win. Had he stayed at ISU for 20 years, I think he could have had Bill Self levels of success here.
I'd put Larry next, for the moment, but TJ is right there and is still growing as a coach.
It’s hard to tell the difference between most important and best. Luke I said, no one has stuck around long enough to really be the best. I think TJ could. But until someone does, you can’t tell.
CycloneErik
Well-Known Member
Yeah, i'm certainly willing to acknowledge orr's importance to iowa state, i just don't think he's the best coach we've had. I think you have to look at conference and tournament performance to weigh that.
This isn't that complicated. I enjoy the shared experience of the game threads, but can see why others don't. But it shouldn't be unexpected that when the team is playing poorly that many comments on the thread point out the poor play and then people make fatalistic projections, and that when they are playing well the opposite happens. I view the people who do it as passionate ISU fans not bad fans, so it is easy to cut them a little slack. But for certain CFers, if they weren't here blasting something somebody else expressed during a game, they'd have little purpose posting here. It's predictable and dumb, but it's fine. And then there is ZRF who has a whole other set of issues.
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It's an unfair question at the moment. All the coaches before were tainted by their endings. We have not seen how the TJ ending plays out yet.
But no one really has much better than he does. Floyd had one sweet 16. Larry had an elite 8. Fred had a sweet 16. Prohm had one. TJ had one. All had an early exit. All have had a top 1-2 finish in the conference. All but a few had a tournament championship.
CycloneErik
Well-Known Member
Too soon to tell, but I like where things are trending. It's also important to note that TJ has a far more difficult path to navigate now than any other coach has. It's not simply a matter of finding good talent, developing players, and X's and O's. You have to contend with a larger national media spotlight, social media, the transfer portal, and now NIL - all things that people like Orr, Floyd, and Eustachy never had to worry about.
Eustachy was very good and his teams had a similar toughness but TJ is on par with him IMO, but TJ will have more upside just because he has his personal life in check.
The other thing is I'm not sure LE would have been as good at finding player long term as TJ will be. Tinsley was an awesome find but a lot of the elite 8 team was Floyd recruits.
The other thing is I'm not sure LE would have been as good at finding player long term as TJ will be. Tinsley was an awesome find but a lot of the elite 8 team was Floyd recruits.
All those had shorter tenures than Orr though. Hell, TJ got the sweet 16 knocked out in year 1, and this team will be favored to make another sweet 16 this year. Tim Floyd won 4 NCAA tournament games in his first 3 years, which is more than Orr did in 14.
And then there's conference finishes which really aren't comparable
After his first rebuilding year Fred finished 3rd, 4th, 3rd and 2nd out of 10 teams. TJ finished 6th, 5th, and (likely) 2nd even including the rebuilding year.
Even allowing for a longer building period in the 80s and not counting anything before his sweet 16 (which it took 6 years to get to , from then on Orr finished outside of the top half of the conference 75% of the time.
But you don’t know how they’d do with longer terms. We just don’t. My gut says that Orr wasn’t the best. But no one proved otherwise long term and in my opinion didn’t have good enough results to overcome that. Fred was probably close.
I think TJ will get there.
I was merely pointing out the emotional swings not just in a season, a month, or week, but in 24 hours. Not calling anyone a bad fan at all. It’s human emotion and we could lose 3 in a row and our season would be done and this thread would then turn on its head.
To your point, the bad fans are easy to identify because they disappear for the most part in a season like this only to appear on a night like last night when things were going bad. It’s funny to me and I’m glad they crawl out just so we can laugh at their expense when we ultimately win.
It's a matter of opinion, but it's a question of would you rather have the highs of LE versus the very good consistency so far of TJ.
The highs of LE are currently higher than what we've gotten, but the lows... man that was pretty low.
Well written....these things have been done with football coaches and I think Pollard has done a good job of "honoring" each of the last few for what they were/needed at the time.
TJ for sure is in cruise control for being the best ever (if not already). He also has some secondary kudos he should get for his role in getting players/coaching during the Hoiberg years. I know he wasn't the head guy, but certainly if we are talking "overall impact to ISU basketball" he's played a HUGE part.
