Playing for metrics or end of year health and success

[SoleCyclone]

If there is 1 thing I'd like change in the mentality of our current program it would be getting away from bowing to the metrics of winning big in trash early season games. Cyclone talking heads always bring up the 17-2 start we had and high ratings in kenpom, but 90% of those teams were basically traffic cones we beat by 30.
In my opinion, I'd rather win by 12-20 in those non-con games and play 10-12 guys deep throughout instead of our 7-8 guys playing 35min to run up the score.
Rest our guys early, play the whole roster, mix young/new guys in at all points of the game, get game experience and hopefully end the season without weardown/overuse injuries.

 

[Cyhig]

If there is 1 thing I'd like change in the mentality of our current program it would be getting away from bowing to the metrics of winning big in trash early season games. Cyclone talking heads always bring up the 17-2 start we had and high ratings in kenpom, but 90% of those teams were basically traffic cones we beat by 30.
In my opinion, I'd rather win by 12-20 in those non-con games and play 10-12 guys deep throughout instead of our 7-8 guys playing 35min to run up the score.
Rest our guys early, play the whole roster, mix young/new guys in at all points of the game, get game experience and hopefully end the season without weardown/overuse injuries.

It's a fine line. A 12 point home win over a team rated #250 will not compute well in the majority of metrics, including the NET ranking, I personally would like to see a deeper regular bench rotation. Ideally a 10 man rotation instead of 7-8. Easier said than done though

 

[SoleCyclone]

It's a fine line. A 12 point home win over a team rated #250 will not compute well in the majority of metrics, including the NET ranking, I personally would like to see a deeper regular bench rotation. Ideally a 10 man rotation instead of 7-8. Easier said than done though

True. Also an interesting talker when it comes to would a more rested, experienced depth roster win a few games we lost later in the year (ok st. Kst @home etc.) In turn, having a better record vs win margin against crap opponents. I guess we'll never know

 

[ClubCy]

Keep in mind reallocating minutes doesn’t guarantee an injury free season.

 

[MJ271]

I think this point is still overplayed. At the very least, Otz is not playing "7-8 guys playing 35min to run up the score." In the six non-P5 non-conference games, Lipsey averaged 27 minutes a game, Gilbert averaged 29, and Jones averaged 27. In those same games, Gilbert played three games with at least 30 minutes (two at 30, one at 32), Lipsey had zero, and Jones had one.

Could Otz have reduced each of them a few more to steal some developmental minutes for other guys? Maybe, but you also want those guys to get used to playing with the new transfers and get re-acclimated to playing something close to their typical minutes.

With the top-heavy composition of this year's team, they just kind of got in an odd place for minutes. Even if you had figured only 25 minutes in a non-con scrub game for each of Lipsey, Gilbert, Jones, Momcilovic, and Jefferson, that already takes up 125/200 minutes. Then Jackson and Chatfield probably combine for 35 of the post minutes. That would have left just 40 minutes for some combination of Heise, Nojus, Watson, and any deep bench time at the end of the game.

Edit: I'll also continue to bang on the drum that Otz's rotations aren't as static or as limited as most people on here seem to believe. It may be surprising, but this was the first season where Otz clearly had a preference for 8 specific guys in the rotation.

 

[BWRhasnoAC]

TJ's style isn't really conducive to 8 man rotations. We don't have the money to get more than that however.

Gotta hit on freshman and under valued transfers if we're going to reach the next level. We will probably always be competitive but I'm not sure we will ever be a power house.

 

[syclonefan]

We probably shouldn’t practice during the season too. Otherwise, Milan wouldn’t have broke his hand/finger.

 

[SoleCyclone]

We probably shouldn’t practice during the season too. Otherwise, Milan wouldn’t have broke his hand/finger.

Eyeroll. This is a discussion about game experience and minute allocation.

 

[Cyclonepride]

If there is 1 thing I'd like change in the mentality of our current program it would be getting away from bowing to the metrics of winning big in trash early season games. Cyclone talking heads always bring up the 17-2 start we had and high ratings in kenpom, but 90% of those teams were basically traffic cones we beat by 30.
In my opinion, I'd rather win by 12-20 in those non-con games and play 10-12 guys deep throughout instead of our 7-8 guys playing 35min to run up the score.
Rest our guys early, play the whole roster, mix young/new guys in at all points of the game, get game experience and hopefully end the season without weardown/overuse injuries.

Honestly, those thirty point traffic cones would have been a great way to expand the potential of our bench. The staff must place a greater priority on establishing a well oiled top 8. Hard to question their overall success, but I do think this team would have benefited greatly from having at least 9 guys to soak up the wear and tear.

 

[Big_Sill]

It's never this simple or binary.

However, in general I agree: I would take a couple more losses and a worse seed in the NCAA, if it meant we would be healthy at the end of the year. I just don't think you can manage those things in a binary fashion.

Seeds don't really matter, just need to make the tourney.

 

[clone52]

If there is 1 thing I'd like change in the mentality of our current program it would be getting away from bowing to the metrics of winning big in trash early season games. Cyclone talking heads always bring up the 17-2 start we had and high ratings in kenpom, but 90% of those teams were basically traffic cones we beat by 30.
In my opinion, I'd rather win by 12-20 in those non-con games and play 10-12 guys deep throughout instead of our 7-8 guys playing 35min to run up the score.
Rest our guys early, play the whole roster, mix young/new guys in at all points of the game, get game experience and hopefully end the season without weardown/overuse injuries.

If you think a few extra minutes in a game is driving these injuries, you must not realize these players also practice.

 

[jbhtexas]

We probably shouldn’t practice during the season too. Otherwise, Milan wouldn’t have broke his hand/finger.

The team has to practice. The coach doesn't have to play the starters in the latter stages of a pre-conference blowout. One is a necessity, and one isn't.

 

[jbhtexas]

If you think a few extra minutes in a game is driving these injuries, you must not realize these players also practice.

It isn't just about injuries. It's about getting guys familiar with the game-time environment so they are better ready to play if needed.

 

[BWRhasnoAC]

If you think a few extra minutes in a game is driving these injuries, you must not realize these players also practice.

That's what I meant by TJ's style. If you're going to beat your team up in practice you better have some bench players that can produce.

 

[SoleCyclone]

If you think a few extra minutes in a game is driving these injuries, you must not realize these players also practice.

Not necessarily. I'm also thinking TJ may trust a few extra bench players to fill minutes later in the season when injuries occur rather than even shortening the bench/minutes.

 

[ClubCy]

It's never this simple or binary.

However, in general I agree: I would take a couple more losses and a worse seed in the NCAA, if it meant we would be healthy at the end of the year. I just don't think you can manage those things in a binary fashion.

Seeds don't really matter, just need to make the tourney.

Seeds 1000% matter.

 

[syclonefan]

Eyeroll. This is a discussion about game experience and minute allocation.

Who do you think the 2nd team is going against in practice? The managers?

5 minutes of game experience against Mississippi Valley State isn’t better than practicing against a top 10 team and it’s not the reason Nojus, Rock, etc didn’t develop over the last year.

 

[3TrueFans]

It isn't just about injuries. It's about getting guys familiar with the game-time environment so they are better ready to play if needed.

Which guys?

 

[SoleCyclone]

Who do you think the 2nd team is going against in practice? The managers?

5 minutes of game experience against Mississippi Valley State isn’t better than practicing against a top 10 team and it’s not the reason Nojus, Rock, etc didn’t develop over the last year.

It isn't better but why can't you do both?

 

[SoleCyclone]

Which guys?

Ok well, let's look at this upcoming season. We have 4 major minute eaters retuning. With 4 incoming freshman and potential 5 transfer roster spots open who gets pushed out? I know there will be a lot of people pissing and moaning that they aren't getting playing time and team looks exhausted in Feb and all that ********.