NBA: *** Official 2015 NBA Playoffs Thread ***

[Jordanj6502]

Sounds like Butler doesn't want to be in Chicago. Have fun with that Fred.

I think the earliest Butler can get out of Chicago if the Bulls want him is if he signs the Qualifying Offer for under $5mil. In that case I think he becomes a UFA in 2016. But at $5m for one year that is a steal for the Bulls.

I could be wrong in how Qualifying Offer vs Max Qualifying Offer vs Max offer from the Bulls works.

 

[cycfan1]

I've said all along Iggy deserved it

Must be tough to shoot that many wide open jumpers while Curry was passing out of triple teams.

Someone should lose their job voting over the fact Curry didn't get 1 vote.

 

[GTO]

It's satire

No issue with the content of the article, just the grammar/spelling. You would think someone would have proofread that before publishing it.

 

[cyfanatic13]

This article is floating around twitter and facebook today http://www.foxsports.com/college-fo...verage/lebron-james-decapitates-haters-061015

 

[Rhoadhoused]

No issue with the content of the article, just the grammar/spelling. You would think someone would have proofread that before publishing it.

That's the schtick man.

It's @pftcommenter

Obviously, he is essentially in character as a commenter on Pro Football Talk.

 

[HFCS]

This article is floating around twitter and facebook today http://www.foxsports.com/college-fo...verage/lebron-james-decapitates-haters-061015

I don't "hate" LeBron and was actually cheering for the Cavs quite a bit once my team was eliminated. I think he's the second best player I've ever seen, and possesses the most natural talent. Now there are clearly some people going off the deep end criticizing LBJ, but the author seems to think anyone denying he's the greatest ever is some sort of hater which means the author is a total moron.

The author wants to act as if 6-0 in the finals vs 2-4 in the finals is irrelevant...clearly two of LBJ's 6 tries came with supporting casts much worse than any of MJ's 6 finals. So let's go with purely stats and pretend like winning championships doesn't really matter (a gigantic 'if' but I'll patronize this guy).

The way people like the author talk you'd think MJ sucked at rebounding and passing compared to LBJ. This is a myth and a sign someone was too young to have watched MJ, much like I read young people mistakenly think MJ wasn't a great defender when he was a top defender in league history especially in crunch time.

Assists: LBJ gets you 1 more assist per game in his playoff career
Rebounds: LBJ gets you 1 more rebound per game in his playoff career
Points: MJ scored 5.2 points per game more in playoff games
Steals: MJ got .6 more steals per game in playoff games
Blocks: LBJ .1 more block per game, basically a wash and the only key stat neither is prolific in
Turnovers: MJ turned the ball over .4 less times per game
FG%: MJ .487, LBJ .473

MJ has the #1 career PER of all time, LBJ has the #3 career PER

So while it's nice LBJ gets one more assist per game and one more rebound per game, it's a very overblown talking point in the GOAT debate. It certainly doesn't make up for the fact that MJ scored 5.2 more per game shooting a higher %. Add the PER stat and 6-0 in the Finals...people who think MJ was the greatest aren't "haters" like the author suggests, they are "realists" and "not kids".

Obviously some people are just unhinged if they are acting like LBJ isn't great as he's beyond argument top 5 of all time and I'd put him #2 myself, but that's not most people who think MJ is the greatest player ever.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

I don't "hate" LeBron and was actually cheering for the Cavs quite a bit once my team was eliminated. I think he's the second best player I've ever seen, and possesses the most natural talent. Now there are clearly some people going off the deep end criticizing LBJ, but the author seems to think anyone denying he's the greatest ever is some sort of hater which means the author is a total moron.

The author wants to act as if 6-0 in the finals vs 2-4 in the finals is irrelevant...clearly two of LBJ's 6 tries came with supporting casts much worse than any of MJ's 6 finals. So let's go with purely stats and pretend like winning championships doesn't really matter (a gigantic 'if' but I'll patronize this guy).

The way people like the author talk you'd think MJ sucked at rebounding and passing compared to LBJ. This is a myth and a sign someone was too young to have watched MJ, much like I read young people mistakenly think MJ wasn't a great defender when he was a top defender in league history especially in crunch time.

Assists: LBJ gets you 1 more assist per game in his playoff career
Rebounds: LBJ gets you 1 more rebound per game in his playoff career
Points: MJ scored 5.2 points per game more in playoff games
Steals: MJ got .6 more steals per game in playoff games
Blocks: LBJ .1 more block per game, basically a wash and the only key stat neither is prolific in
Turnovers: MJ turned the ball over .4 less times per game
FG%: MJ .487, LBJ .473

MJ has the #1 career PER of all time, LBJ has the #3 career PER

So while it's nice LBJ gets one more assist per game and one more rebound per game, it's a very overblown talking point in the GOAT debate. It certainly doesn't make up for the fact that MJ scored 5.2 more per game shooting a higher %. Add the PER stat and 6-0 in the Finals...people who think MJ was the greatest aren't "haters" like the author suggests they are "realists" and "not kids".

Obviously some people are just unhinged if they are acting like LBJ isn't great as he's beyond argument top 5 of all time and I'd put him #2 myself, but that's not most people who think MJ was the greatest to lace them up.

I have no problem putting MJ over LBJ, especially at this moment, in terms of career accomplishments, but.....

1. If LBJ ends up with 6 titles and 10 finals appearances that is better than going 6/6. You could probably argue going 5 for 10 is more impressive as well. Any argument about Finals winning percentage is an immediate sign to me to stop arguing because you kicked the ball and moved the goalposts around it.

2. Neither LeBron or Jordan is actually much better than the other. Over the course of their entire careers neither really has a large statistical advantage over the whole spectrum of on court basketball accomplishments. They are certainly the best two players in modern NBA history.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

Also, we're cherry picking a bit with playoff numbers since Jordan only played 10 playoff games his first 3 years. LeBron also played 71 playoff games without playing next to an All Star in a playoff game. (Zadrunas Illgauskus was an All Star his 2nd year)

Pippen was an All Star in 89/90 so he played 37 games in the playoffs before his first All Star teammate.

Of course, that's just a decently arbitrary line and MJ's supporting casts were far better than LeBron's in his early years. Moreso than just having an extra All Star.

Not to mention Jordan's playoffs were a lot less gruesome as far as scheduling goes with the 5 game opening rounds.

 

[HFCS]

Also, we're cherry picking a bit with playoff numbers since Jordan only played 10 playoff games his first 3 years. LeBron also played 71 playoff games without playing next to an All Star in a playoff game. (Zadrunas Illgauskus was an All Star his 2nd year)

Pippen was an All Star in 89/90 so he played 37 games in the playoffs before his first All Star teammate.

Of course, that's just a decently arbitrary line and MJ's supporting casts were far better than LeBron's in his early years. Moreso than just having an extra All Star.

Not to mention Jordan's playoffs were a lot less gruesome as far as scheduling goes with the 5 game opening rounds.

Agree with your first previous post but MJ's playoff scoring average is likely even higher if he had more playoff games those early years. If he had played a ton of playoff games early his career playoff scoring average could be around 35-37 ppg. The Bulls became a good well rounded team gradually but they weren't great when he got there just like the Cavs weren't great when LeBron got there.

MJ's playoff stats are better than LeBron's even without the 6-0 finals. His career PER is better. He was out almost almost 3 full seasons of his prime between the injured year and baseball years. Say what you want about that (part of LBJ's greatness is durability) but it certainly doesn't help MJ's overall numbers missing 3 prime seasons. The career PER where he is above LBJ includes the two wizard years after he had been retired a while.

Basically the author of that story is a moron to suggest people can't claim Jordan is the greatest player ever at this point. LeBron needs to keep going to make it a discussion, the guy embarrasses himself with that piece.

I don't hold LBJ's 0-2 in the Finals with the Cavs against him in the slightest. Both are a testament to how awesome he is.

I do hold his 2011 Finals against him, at no time has he been so drastically far behind typical Michael Jordan than those finals, and he had plenty of help on that team. Dallas was not some unstoppable force either. To me if you want to compare finals records it's entirely fair to say LBJ was 2-1 with very good Heat teams and MJ was 6-0. That last year Wade played like a turd compared to the previous 3.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

Agree with your first previous post but MJ's playoff scoring average is likely even higher if he had more playoff games those early years. If he had played a ton of playoff games early his career playoff scoring average could be around 35-37 ppg. The Bulls became a good well rounded team gradually but they weren't great when he got there just like the Cavs weren't great when LeBron got there.

MJ's playoff stats are better than LeBron's even without the 6-0 finals. His career PER is better. He was out almost almost 3 full seasons of his prime between the injured year and baseball year. Say what you want about that but it certainly doesn't help his numbers. The career PER where he is above LBJ includes the two wizard years after he had been retired a while.

Basically the author of that story is a moron to suggest people can't claim Jordan is the greatest player ever at this point. LeBron needs to keep going to make it a discussion, the guy embarrasses himself with that piece.

I don't hold LBJ's 0-2 in the Finals with the Cavs against him in the slightest. Both are a testament to how awesome he is.

I do hold his 2011 Finals against him, at no time has he been so drastically far behind typical Michael Jordan than those finals, and he had plenty of help on that team. Dallas was not some unstoppable force either. To me if you want to compare finals records it's entirely fair to say LBJ was 2-1 with very good Heat teams and MJ was 6-0. That last year Wade played like a turd compared to the previous 3.

Let's be clear, Michael Jordan quitting basketball and taking a year off, and sucking the year he came back or whatever, are his fault. That's on him. No excuses need to be made for that. That's his legacy. Not another feather in his cap or another excuse to be made.

If LeBron just quit basketball it would be a shitstorm. LeBron's insane (INSANE) durability is one of the things that makes him in the elite of the elite as an all time great.

He's already played more minutes than Jordan at 30 years old and he's never had a major injury. It's unreal.

Who's to say Jordan can win those 2nd 3 straight if he doesn't have all that time off?

Finals winning percentages are stupid, period. How many finals you win can be the priority, but it is outrageous to even consider someone getting to the finals and losing being held against them compared to a player who couldn't even get to the finals. That's my major point there.

Like when I made this argument years ago, I am talking as far as pace of career. And I think the best argument I will have is his play going forward.

Of course, saying their career accomplishments are equal right now is crazy since LBJ has so much left. But when you actually look at the two as players, they are equals. Jordan was a superior scorer and took more shots, LeBron a superior rebounder and passer who scored but his calling card is his willingess to pass and make the right play.

 

[HFCS]

Let's be clear, Michael Jordan quitting basketball and taking a year off, and sucking the year he came back or whatever, are his fault. That's on him. No excuses need to be made for that. That's his legacy. Not another feather in his cap or another excuse to be made.

If LeBron just quit basketball it would be a shitstorm. LeBron's insane (INSANE) durability is one of the things that makes him in the elite of the elite as an all time great.

He's already played more minutes than Jordan at 30 years old and he's never had a major injury. It's unreal.

Who's to say Jordan can win those 2nd 3 straight if he doesn't have all that time off?

Finals winning percentages are stupid, period. How many finals you win can be the priority, but it is outrageous to even consider someone getting to the finals and losing being held against them compared to a player who couldn't even get to the finals. That's my major point there.

Like when I made this argument years ago, I am talking as far as pace of career. And I think the best argument I will have is his play going forward.

I actually edited the durability part in as you were responding to me so clearly we agree there.

You can't criticize MJ for leaving for over 1.5 years (the injured year maybe that is an edge to LBJ unless he gets injured some year) and also claim he has so much more mileage. LBJ could have played college ball too if he wanted. He chose to have more mileage on him at 30 just like Jordan chose (or was forced if you're a conspiracy buff) to take a couple seasons off. It was the right choice for him, but he could have played college basketball and had 'less miles' if that was his plan.

I agree that Finals win % can be stupid if that's the only thing you look at. But only someone trying to piece together an anti-Jordan argument would say a 6-0 record in the NBA Finals with 6 NBA Finals MVPs is not impressive. It's an amazing achievement for Jordan but 2-4 isn't some horrible thing for LeBron. Playing drastically below his own normal numbers in 2011 is a horrible thing for LeBron's legacy given who he is chasing though. '07 I can cut him some slack for not having great #s compared to his typical games because it was ridiculous just to get there ahead of schedule w/ that team.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

I actually edited the durability part in as you were responding to me so clearly we agree there.

You can't criticize MJ for leaving for over 1.5 years (the injured year maybe that is an edge to LBJ unless he gets injured some year) and also claim he has so much more mileage. LBJ could have played college ball too if he wanted. He chose to have more mileage on him at 30 just like Jordan chose (or was forced if you're a conspiracy buff) to take a couple seasons off. It was the right choice for him, but he could have played college basketball and had 'less miles' if that was his plan.

I agree that Finals win % can be stupid if that's the only thing you look at. But only someone trying to piece together an anti-Jordan argument would say a 6-0 record in the NBA Finals with 6 NBA Finals MVPs is not impressive. It's an amazing achievement for Jordan but 2-4 isn't some horrible thing for LeBron. Playing drastically below his own normal numbers in 2011 is a horrible thing for LeBron's legacy given who he is chasing though. '07 I can cut him some slack for not having great #s compared to his typical games because it was ridiculous just to get there ahead of schedule w/ that team.

I am going to go ahead and assume Jordan chose to leave basketball himself haha.

LeBron's minutes aren't what is impressive, I'm not complaining about it making him worse other than playoff performance when it came to 5 game opening rounds. He clearly is statistically right there with Jordan even with those extra minutes. The durability is the impressive part.

Jordan chose to go to college, where he was coached by an all time great coach in Dean Smith, something I think is often overlooked when discussing LeBron's early career. (although that was his choice as well, he could've been coached by anyone he wanted in college). LeBron made decisions that led to a MASSIVE load of minutes for the past 12 years and he has been insanely durable. It's a plus in his column.

Jordan taking off 1.5 years is something that probably helped him benefit physically, and it surely helped him mentally as he has always stated about not loving the game any more. It is what it is. Jordan made his decisions there.

 

[ISU42]

I hold the 2011 Finals against LeBron. Dude didn't step up and let Jason Terry shine. JASON TERRY.

 

[HFCS]

I hold the 2011 Finals against LeBron. Dude didn't step up and let Jason Terry shine. JASON TERRY.

It goes to show how crazy high the bar is. That's the one time in his career I think he clearly failed and seriously didn't seem to belong in any GOAT discussion, but given who you're chasing that one time counts quite a bit.

You're chasing 6-0 in the finals, 6 time finals MVP, #1 statistical PER player ever.

The guy who wrote that silly article doesn't get it (I'd be curious to know his age). LeBron isn't chasing Magic or Bird or Duncan, he's chasing the most competitive grinding closer I've ever seen in sports and the highest PER rating player ever. With that comes an almost comical level of scrutiny.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

It goes to show how crazy high the bar is. That's the one time in his career I think he clearly failed and seriously didn't seem to belong in any GOAT discussion, but given who you're chasing that one time counts quite a bit.

You're chasing 6-0 in the finals, 6 time finals MVP, #1 statistical PER player ever.

The guy who wrote that silly article doesn't get it (I'd be curious to know his age). LeBron isn't chasing Magic or Bird or Duncan, he's chasing the most competitive grinding closer I've ever seen in sports and the highest PER rating player ever. With that comes an almost comical level of scrutiny.

Serious question, if LeBron get's to 10 finals and wins 6, what is more impressive? 6-0 or 6-4?

He's going to go to way more finals than Jordan did, which I think can at least neutralize one performance in his first legit title shot of his career with team he had only been on for one year.

6 championships is the impressive number.

Or championships over years played is the impressive number even.

 

[CRcyclone6]

Serious question, if LeBron get's to 10 finals and wins 6, what is more impressive? 6-0 or 6-4?

6 championships is the impressive number.

Or championships over years played is the impressive number even.

6-4 would be more impressive. 2 of James' where **** without him.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

6-4 would be more impressive. 2 of James' where **** without him.

What the hell does VIP member mean?

 

[CRcyclone6]

What the hell does VIP member mean?

Not sure, other than I'm ******* cool as hell.

 

[Mumbai1986]

LeBron has set himself into the top 10 greatest players to play the game.

HOWEVER, what might hold him back is how **** poor the East has been since he has entered the league.

It's been easy as hell to get to the finals in the East.

Place him in the west, and who know if he gets to the title 6 times.

 

[Mumbai1986]

Also, do the GSW keep this championship team intact?

Their financials are excellent.

Only issue really is re-upping Draymond and figuring out what to do with the bloated contracts of Lee and Bogut.

If they can dump Lee and possibly Bogut on some team, then they can easily re-sign Draymond, Barnes, and then in the future really pay Curry the money he is worth.