How often do you think about the Roman Empire?

How often do you think about the Roman Empire?

  • Every day

  • Weekly

  • Monthly

  • I don't think about them at all.


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stewart092284

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Sep 22, 2021
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Without a doubt it's more complicated than that, but I think my main point was that for a significant fraction (depending on which arbitrary dates one wants to pick as "beginning" and "end", possibly even a majority) of the empire's life, the concepts of "Being Roman" and "Being Christian" were very much intertwined - like I'm pretty sure if one could talk to someone living in Constantinople in about 450 CE or so, they would say one couldn't be Roman without being Christian, if they would even recognize the two concepts as distinct from one another. The whole idea of a separation between nationality and religion is a pretty modern concept.

I'd also argue that Rome itself ceased to be the capital of the Empire round about the crisis of the 3rd century - particularly by the era of the Dominate the "capital" was wherever the Emperor happened to be (which definitely gets messy during the Tetrarchy because there's four of them).

The fall of the West probably was inevitable, but the lesson I draw from it is that Rome as an institution failed to do what it had done many times before - successfully integrate a new population (in the final case, the germanic/frankish peoples) and get them to buy into the concept of the empire. They'd done this a LOT over their history - one could measure the life of the empire as which region provides the leadership for and maybe "driving force" of the state; starts in Rome itself, then moves to the surrounding Italian cities, then Greece, Hispania, North Africa, Dacia/the Balkans, etc. I suspect there's a thesis for a book in here somewhere :).

That's actually the parallel I'd draw with the US - we've also successfully integrated disparate populations and gotten "buy-in" on the values and ideas we (claim to) espouse over our history and (in my opinion) gained strength by doing so. Are we reaching a stage in our development where we're not able to do that anymore? Maybe. But I don't want to get this thread banished to the Cave, so I'll stop there.
Agree that many, especially in the later and maybe even middle depending on dates would equate being Roman to being Christian.

And yes, you are correct that the capital moved and in general was where-ever the Emperor was. Or at a later date in Italy it even stopped being Rome and moved to Ravenna, if memory serves, partially or mostly because that city was more defensible.

But my point was more that Rome as the cultural heart , so to speak, not a perfect analogy I understand, but that started changing once the capitals started moving with the emperors, once Constantinople was founded and growing, Rome was challenged within the empire as 1st city in a way that it hadn't really been before..

I think to some degree you are correct that Rome stopped integrating and that lead to its down fall. I think also, there was some disconnect from its peoples. For example you have the two very different views of society from the West and the East, the Latin vs. the Greek speakers. Sure, there were commonalities but in some ways, I think Rome's fall was that it not only failed to continue to integrate, I'm not sure towards the end if it did a great job of actually creating a common thread between the different groups of people. I think initially there was a very strong connection between being Roman and what that meant. I think the problem for any country,

or empire, for that matter, once it gets to be a certain size and of a certain level of diversity, is that establishing that common thread can be difficult. Look at the US today. How different are the culture norms, beliefs and customs of people if you go from California to Texas to New York city then to Alabama than to Alaska? I think that also played a role and was a double edged sword. Diversity and expansion helped Rome became what it was, but I think eventually it also was one of the pieces that perhaps lead to its downfall.

I think it was a bit of a catch 22 just like it can be today. The benefits FAR outweigh the risks to me but even though everyone in the US lives in the same country, I'd argue we're less united than too many earlier times in our history, which, granted, from a historical context, we are still very very much a baby.

I think to some degree the size , wealth and diversity of Rome, while as a strength also laid the foundation for its collapse. Because some of its unifying principles from earlier in the Republic or early days of the empire I'm not sure if they were as strong as they once were.
 
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1100011CS

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Oct 5, 2007
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That's a tad simplistic. Yes and no.

Rome's civilization did not entirely crumble from within. There were external pressures from an overburdened system of government that failed to change and modify itself coupled with the splitting of the empire into two, which essentially left the more financially stable and food producing eastern Empire in a more secure position than the West coupled with Rome's policy of assimilation and success, earlier a strength and a symbol of stability and power and the army's rise to prominence of being the sole body controlling the Emperor - turned into a society that lead to an out sourcing of its military, increasing intolerance of people who were different even as they relied on them and then a serious of highly incompetent leaders coupled with the decay and decline from its own civilization ... so while its common to say Rome collapsed from within, that's not entirely accurate as there were new pressures that came from climate change, migratory peoples , and several waves of disease that depleted Rome's ability to properly defend its borders along with society's change coupled with bad leadership - in many ways it was a perfect storm that Rome was unable to cope with.

all of that lead to the fall of Rome. Well, Western Rome. Eastern Rome of course survived for quite a while.
that sounds familiar
 

2122

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Mar 21, 2021
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Just as the Roman empire is referenced a lot, so is Adoph Hitler. Here's a rare chance to hear Hitler in his normal speaking voice....
 

stewart092284

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Sep 22, 2021
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I've heard it before. Don't really care to listen to it again. Also, that's a really strange comparison. I mean, a LOT of things are mentioned a lot historically. So's Columbus, Pearl Harbor, 9/11, Wounded Knee, the 100 Years War, etc...
 
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Sigmapolis

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I think it was a bit of a catch 22 just like it can be today. The benefits FAR outweigh the risks to me but even though everyone in the US lives in the same country, I'd argue we're less united than too many earlier times in our history, which, granted, from a historical context, we are still very very much a baby.

I actually think the current fractiousness of American politics is more the historic norm than an exception. Our view of this is influenced by nostalgia for the 1950s (the "peak" idyllic time in American history, though I would argue it was mostly false) and so many of our leaders in various institutions having come into their adulthood in the 1990s, which was the ultimate "feelgood" era in American history up to this point.

Going through it, though, there were so many eras in American history that were just wild...

Confederation Period = Almost no central government and a very strong possibility the states would drift off into independence or regional blocs, culminates in several armed rebellions.

Early Republic = The mud Hamilton and Jefferson's factions threw at each other was something else. The fight was to define the political DNA of a young nation, and everybody knew it and fought like it, and some rather challenging events (the Quasi War, for instance) and the Alien and Sedition Acts were wild.

A relatively calm "Era of Good Feelings" in here.

Jacksonian Era = A terrifying burst of populism and militaristic strongmanism.

Run up to the Civil War/the Civil War itself/Reconstruction.

The political controversies of the late 19th Century after Reconstruction were incredible. I don't know how the country survived that century, to be honest. The battles between capital and labor that defined this era through WWII were incredibly nasty and turned into a few low-grade civil conflicts.

Populism (the original version) and the career of WJB

That rat bastard Wilson and the Great War and Palmer Raids

The 1920s are relatively calm until...

Great Depression... World War... you know, nothing big.

Brief interruption for American Graffiti

60s/70s civil rights and political radicalism

Renewed Cold War in the 1980s and controversial politics at home

Brief interruption for the 1990s

2000s and 2010s post-9/11 shock and wars and financial crisis

The boat has usually been rockin' throughout U.S. history. It's rarely been stable.
 
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cowgirl836

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Sep 3, 2009
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The instagram responses on this are hilarious. Even my own spouse said "not often" and I'm like WHAT? What does that mean? Why isn't the answer NEVER????
 
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CascadeClone

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Oct 24, 2009
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I actually think the current fractiousness of American politics is more the historic norm than an exception. Our view of this is influenced by nostalgia for the 1950s (the "peak" idyllic time in American history, though I would argue it was mostly false) and so many of our leaders in various institutions having come into their adulthood in the 1990s, which was the ultimate "feelgood" era in American history up to this point.

I think the question right now is - does the internet, instant mass communication, the 24 hours news / outrage cycle et al -- does that make the possibility of fracturing for real more likely? Cali or Texas declaring independence or somesuch?

You can get a LOT more people a LOT more worked up a LOT faster than when news had to be read in tomorrow mornings paper, or watched at 5:30pm central.

That said, none of the recent riots/violence are near as bad as a lot of what happened in the 60s. So IDK.
 

Sigmapolis

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I think the question right now is - does the internet, instant mass communication, the 24 hours news / outrage cycle et al -- does that make the possibility of fracturing for real more likely? Cali or Texas declaring independence or somesuch?

You can get a LOT more people a LOT more worked up a LOT faster than when news had to be read in tomorrow mornings paper, or watched at 5:30pm central.

That said, none of the recent riots/violence are near as bad as a lot of what happened in the 60s. So IDK.

It makes talking **** easier but probably undermines effective action.

Borrowing this quote from the Internet (can't find the original now) but...

Revolutions tend to be led by young people.

I don't think a generation that is afraid to order pizza on the phone will be the vanguard of a revolution.
 
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stewart092284

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Sep 22, 2021
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I actually think the current fractiousness of American politics is more the historic norm than an exception. Our view of this is influenced by nostalgia for the 1950s (the "peak" idyllic time in American history, though I would argue it was mostly false) and so many of our leaders in various institutions having come into their adulthood in the 1990s, which was the ultimate "feelgood" era in American history up to this point.
So I don't disagree that the boat has been rocking... which is try in any country that is not one cultural and racial group.

My point is - there were events that unified the country, some of which you named. I don't know that if a 9/11 event happened today or Pearl Harbor - I'm not convinced that we unite or have a period of less boat rocking. I think we've crossed that Rubicon. I hope I'm wrong and I equally and more hope that that event never ever happens. History says something will at some time. I just hope I'm not here to see it when it does and by that I mean its more than 40 years away.
 

stewart092284

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Sep 22, 2021
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Oh no doubt about that. I think in part because it makes everyone look bad and doesn't fit the narrative that there's one clear good and one clear bad side. Sure, sometimes - though IMO rare - there are those.

But at the same time - 98% of history to me is more shaded grey than black or white. Again, certain events are certainly so obviously wrong but even there, at times, its hard to blame just one group. Which is what modern society wants. I'm right, your wrong.

And a lot of history, good or bad, is just not that simple. Kinda like modern politics and life LOL
 
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AgronAlum

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Jul 12, 2014
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I couldn’t keep my mouth shut about the Roman Empire when those gold strapped sandals popped off for chicks. I’d call my wife Maximus every time she wore some.
 

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