Hoiberg fired from the Bulls

[Urbandale2013]

@Urbandale2013 I think we are pretty similar in our thinking of Prohm's performance thus far, but I do think many people really overestimate the potential of those 2016 and 2017 ISU teams.

Those teams had amazing shooting and some really fun offense, but defensively there were some major liabilities and potential to create mismatches by the opposing team. Also when you play so many awesome guards you most often sacrifice dearly in offensive and defensive rebounding. Prohm may have underachieved in 2018, but I think given the roster construction there is a compelling argument that he overachieved in 2016 and 2017. For example when you compare preseason to final Sagarin, KPI, and KenPom ratings, ISU maintained or exceeded expectations in those first 2 years.

Perhaps Prohm's best attribute is being able to make some difficult decisions early know that it will be worth it when it really matters at the end of the year. It is still TBD, but the early season suspensions might be another example of that.

p.s. The criticisms I have of Prohm are some of the transfer misses and seeming ineffectiveness of BLOB/SLOB plays. Starting tonight, how Prohm incorporates 4 players and manages the chemistry and minutes of a team that has been humming will be really fascinating. It might be his most difficult and telling test yet.

I think one difference is the emphasis I place on regular season and winning in Hilton. Tonight will be interesting to see.

I think to an extent 2016 and 2017 are a case of what could have been with Hoiberg and that wouldn’t have ever gone away.

I really put a lot of emphasis on the poor of bounds plays as well. Reality is his weaknesses really coincide with what I value. I’m optimistic we will continue to get better throughout the year. I still think our ceiling is super high.

 

[Sigmapolis]

@Urbandale2013 I think we are pretty similar in our thinking of Prohm's performance thus far, but I do think many people really overestimate the potential of those 2016 and 2017 ISU teams.

Those teams had amazing shooting and some really fun offense, but defensively there were some major liabilities and potential to create mismatches by the opposing team. Also when you play so many awesome guards you most often sacrifice dearly in offensive and defensive rebounding. Prohm may have underachieved in 2018, but I think given the roster construction there is a compelling argument that he overachieved in 2016 and 2017. For example when you compare preseason to final Sagarin, KPI, and KenPom ratings, ISU maintained or exceeded expectations in those first 2 years.

Perhaps Prohm's best attribute is being able to make some difficult decisions early know that it will be worth it when it really matters at the end of the year. It is still TBD, but the early season suspensions might be another example of that.

p.s. The criticisms I have of Prohm are some of the transfer misses, seeming ineffectiveness of BLOB/SLOB plays, and slowness to make roster decisions. Starting tonight, how Prohm incorporates 4 players and manages the chemistry and minutes of a team that has been humming will be really fascinating. It might be his most difficult and telling test yet.

Great post. Thank you for that. If I may add...

Hoiberg left Prohm a ton of talent, but those teams were not flawless. They were built to score but not to stop. The first team had five good starters, but very little depth behind them. Burton needed a lot of work as a junior, and Naz only played eight games that season. Prohm deserves some credit for getting a lot more out of Matt and Abdel than Fred did, too.

The second team had maybe the best backcourt in school history, but Fred had never added a big man in the class with Monté and Matt who would have developed with them. That came back to bite that year, even if Prohm had them playing great by the end of the season. The advanced metrics rated them a Top 10 team for their performance the last two months of the season. They proved it in Lawrence and Kansas City after they came into form.

They just ran into a really tough match-up with Purdue in Milwaukee. I know the team with the Georges injury has the most mystique with it, but I really think that team... with an all-galaxy PG, so many great shooters, and an actually pretty salty defense that finally found a big body at the rim in Solomon Young... might have been the bigger what if.

That team with a hot Naz, Matt, Deonte, or Donovan was going to beat anybody.

The advance metrics also said that second Prohm team, even if the "leftovers" of the Hoiberg era, was the best team of the six-year NCAA tournament run.

 

[hoosman]

I don't see why another NBA team wouldn't see through the GarPax stranglehold on the Bulls and give Fred another chance at HC. Phoenix fired Hornacek and he got a job at the Knicks right away. That being said, I value Prohm, love his recruiting, defense, humility, uptempo. I'm just not fully onboard with the 4 guard system. Rebounding, layups, and rim protection are guarantees - 3 pointers are a crapshoot. Maybe that's oldschool mentality.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I don't see why another NBA team wouldn't see through the GarPax stranglehold on the Bulls and give Fred another chance at HC. Phoenix fired Hornacek and he got a job at the Knicks right away. That being said, I value Prohm, love his recruiting, defense, humility, uptempo. I'm just not fully onboard with the 4 guard system. Rebounding, layups, and rim protection are guarantees - 3 pointers are a crapshoot. Maybe that's oldschool mentality.

Yeah. You can't do great things on the basketball court without a traditional 1-5 line-up.

 

[randomfan44]

The last two pages are exactly my point in all of the debate between the two. People are talking past each other. Some can’t accept that there are valid criticisms of Prohm. Right now I’m not really seeing anyone being overly critical of Prohm. It seems a lot of calling for recognizing the reality of his first two year. He could have easily destroyers those teams but he also could have done a better job with those teams. We can debate those differences without calling each other idiots.

ISU has an excellent coach in Prohm. He is really solid, appears to be setting a good foundation of recruiting and seems from my perspective to be primed to do very well at ISU.

Every single one of the top tier elite head coaches in the sport had a lot left to learn about running a big time program when they were at the point that Steve Prohm is right now. Prohm will get better in his weaknesses just as Self, Williams, Izzo and Coach K all did over time, hard lessons and reps. I do not know anything about Prohm's assistants that he has with him and whether or not they are the right assistants to get what works for Prohm's system in the pool of recruits that he will best work in. If they are, then that's awesome. Having a consistent group of coaches that have been through the ringer together several times will help everyone be on the same page and when your practice time is limited like it is in NCAA basketball, that saves a lot of time.

It's a crazy backwards race with everyone being given the same recruiting, practicing and competition calendar and same allotment of time allowed for every activity. Who can get their roster built, taught and trained in the most efficient manner that results in their peak performance at the highest level at the exact right time? Who can build the roster that will be the best prepared to overcome any match up they face in a three week long tourney? Usually the coaching staffs with the most experience together.

I hope Prohm is given enough latitude, patience and support to grow it there at ISU. I really respect the work he has done so far in his career. Looking out over the sport, you guys got yourself a good one.

 

[CNECloneFan]

I hope he sends his collection of in-bounds plays to us.

 

[SpokaneCY]

I think he takes an NBA front office job until the AD position is open at Iowa State.

What makes you think he can do a fraction of what JP has done?

 

[Tornado man]

Really weird statements from the Bulls management about why the felt the move needed to be made. How Paxson and Forman are still in their spots is beyond me because they could honestly be in the bottom 5 worst offices in the nba which caused the mess they are in to be so bad, yet throwing a coach under the bus was the avenue they went with. Good thinking. Guessing Fred is glad to be done with it, while getting to cash the checks on top of it.

If you're talking about them citing "a lack of energy and spirit" on the Bulls, I think it's spot on. Fred seemed scared of his own players, seemed timid in holding them accountable. He would leave players on the court who had zero interest in defense. The team almost never matched their opponents in effort. Sorry, blaming Paxon and Forman is so popular here today, but that's on Fred.

This sure doesn't sound like a head coach who is respected as a leader:

"Fred Hoiberg had to go.

On an afternoon in late September, the Chicago Bulls head coach was fulfilling his media obligations prior to a preseason practice. As Hoiberg answered questions about his team, his lead assistant, Jim Boylen, called the players into a huddle at the other end of the gym -- beginning practice without Hoiberg.

Once Hoiberg noticed, he mumbled a goodbye and rushed over to join the rest of the team."

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25442652/why-fred-hoiberg-failed-chicago-bulls-nba

 

[NWICY]

Well the good part of this is I can now tell my wife Fred isn't perfect like she thinks and have some evidence to back it up.

Any woman over 40 Fred is their "Hall Pass" even if they won't say it to their SO.

 

[NWICY]

That $40,000 a year in property taxes is going to add up fast....

With Fred money 40,000 is noticable but no deal breaker.

 

[NWICY]

Remember the time Prohm failed to make the dance.

John Wooden couldn't have made the dance with that injury riddled roster.

 

[Cyched]

Remember the time Prohm failed to make the dance.

The one time? Ya

 

[Die4Cy]

If you're talking about them citing "a lack of energy and spirit" on the Bulls, I think it's spot on. Fred seemed scared of his own players, seemed timid in holding them accountable. He would leave players on the court who had zero interest in defense. The team almost never matched their opponents in effort. Sorry, blaming Paxon and Forman is so popular here today, but that's on Fred.

This sure doesn't sound like a head coach who is respected as a leader:

"Fred Hoiberg had to go.

On an afternoon in late September, the Chicago Bulls head coach was fulfilling his media obligations prior to a preseason practice. As Hoiberg answered questions about his team, his lead assistant, Jim Boylen, called the players into a huddle at the other end of the gym -- beginning practice without Hoiberg.

Once Hoiberg noticed, he mumbled a goodbye and rushed over to join the rest of the team."

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25442652/why-fred-hoiberg-failed-chicago-bulls-nba

That was definitely the gist of what Paxson was saying in the Boylen press avail yesterday. It sounded like he dinged Fred for not being a teacher of the game (defense?) and not being able to get his players to respond under tough circumstances the way they had for him previously. Despite that, he went well out of his way to commend Fred personally and admitted they had given him a difficult hand to play.

 

[randomfan44]

Remember the time Prohm failed to make the dance.

Coach K missed the tourney each of his first three seasons at Duke. I think they're glad their fan base didn't revolt and have him fired.

 

[Bobber]

Not surprised.

Really like our current coach. Not as flashy, but better fundamentals and is recruiting well. I always thought transfer U was poor long term model.

Fred will land somewhere and always be a Cyclone!

 

[NWICY]

You guys seem to be missing the point. What Prohm did was fine and dandy in 16 and 17, but those were teams with alot of talent, especially the 2016 Niang team. Had he not gotten those teams to the tourney it would have been a horrible coaching job.

For the record, Im all on the Prohm train this year, I like the makeup of this roster and you can already see the talent is finally there to get back to the level Hoiberg had us at.

Yeah I doubt that.

 

[Gunnerclone]

I think one difference is the emphasis I place on regular season and winning in Hilton. Tonight will be interesting to see.

I think to an extent 2016 and 2017 are a case of what could have been with Hoiberg and that wouldn’t have ever gone away.

I really put a lot of emphasis on the poor of bounds plays as well. Reality is his weaknesses really coincide with what I value. I’m optimistic we will continue to get better throughout the year. I still think our ceiling is super high.

You put a lot of emphasis on in bounds plays? JFC Norman Dale.

 

[NoCreativity]

Yeah I doubt that.

You doubt that we have the talent this year? Good to know.

 

[Dandy]

Not surprised.

Really like our current coach. Not as flashy, but better fundamentals and is recruiting well. I always thought transfer U was poor long term model.

Fred will land somewhere and always be a Cyclone!

Transfers as a primary source of talent is a poor long term model but you can't ignore transfers completely either.

Prohm has said multiple times he wants a roster that is a blend of everything. Great high school talent, the right transfers and JUCOs that fit a need and know their role.

 

[nfrine]

Fred who?