Good Lord

[Cyclone62]

We are told to be tolerant of people from the Islamic faith because they aren't all bad...and I agree with this.

But at the same time, Christians are being singled out for their stance on homosexuality...shouldn't we be tolerant of their view just like we should be tolerant of Muslims? Just like we should be to homosexuals?

It's a give and take IMO. Homosexuals should understand peoples' rights who believe it is 100% wrong because of their faith...and vice versa.

It's my right to believe homosexuality is wrong and it's my right to believe its okay. I don't think it's right to hammer people because they believe either way.

I agree with what you're saying, but I think Christians get singled out because we are a Christian nation, and it's starting to lead to internal problems in our society as a whole IMO. Another thing is that there is psychological evidence that Homosexuality isn't a disorder/choice. In light of this kind of evidence, some claims from Christians on the subject don't hold water too well.

I think you can say and believe that homosexuality is "wrong" as you say, but by keeping them from having the same kind of rights that heterosexual couples can have is the issue. All of the homosexual people that I know, some even devout Christians, know that not everyone will think that homosexuality is an alright thing to be. BUT, that same belief should NOT keep or create laws that prohibit and/or hinder the homosexual lifestyle in any way.

 

[wonkadog]

Not saying I whether I believe the Noah story literally or not, but if someone is already a believer in God and that Jesus performed the miracles that were written about, how far of a stretch is it to believe that the God of the entire universe could have been able to get a few animals on a boat and keep them from starving?

 

[shakes20]

Can I just say that while I disagree with some of the posts in this thread, I am very impressed by the tone of the conversation. In an age of Jerry Springer where the person who shouts the loudest thinks that they win, a civil discourse is refreshing.

This is obviously a sensitive topic involving beliefs that many of us hold near and dear to our hearts. I think that it is a given that I will not change the mind of those on this board who disagree with me and they will not change my mind. I respect the right of others to hold their own beliefs and argue for their own values. I am pleased to see that while everyone is advocating for their point of view, for the most part, it has been done without resorting to name calling or character bashing.
Just another reminder of why Cyclone fans are the best people in the world!

 

[Cyclone62]

How do you prove evolution? Didn't Darwin basically refute his own theory before he died? Which by the way was entitled Darwin's Theory of Evolution. Which was just that, a theory.

It's a theory that has scientific findings and support to back it. Until you can somehow find a way to even (although not necessarily conclusively) show that there may be a being of higher order, it will not have any scientific support. There's just no way that we have as of now, to prove the theory either way. That's why I believe creationism should stay in a theology course and not the science classroom.

 

[isucyfan]

Not saying I whether I believe the Noah story literally or not, but if someone is already a believer in God and that Jesus performed the miracles that were written about, how far of a stretch is it to believe that the God of the entire universe could have been able to get a few animals on a boat and keep them from starving?

It's more than a few animals. There are more than 350,000 species of beetles alone. Plus, Noah would have had to have on hand the various special diets needed for each animal. Not likely, unless you skip the logic and say God just made it happen.

 

[Cyclone62]

Can I just say that while I disagree with some of the posts in this thread, I am very impressed by the tone of the conversation. In an age of Jerry Springer where the person who shouts the loudest thinks that they win, a civil discourse is refreshing.

This is obviously a sensitive topic involving beliefs that many of us hold near and dear to our hearts. I think that it is a given that I will not change the mind of those on this board who disagree with me and they will not change my mind. I respect the right of others to hold their own beliefs and argue for their own values. I am pleased to see that while everyone is advocating for their point of view, for the most part, it has been done without resorting to name calling or character bashing.
Just another reminder of why Cyclone fans are the best people in the world!

The only reason that people (anyone) ever disagrees with me is because they don't realize that I'm always right yet. :rolleyes5cz:

 

[wonkadog]

It's a theory that has scientific findings and support to back it. Until you can somehow find a way to even (although not necessarily conclusively) show that there may be a being of higher order, it will not have any scientific support. There's just no way that we have as of now, to prove the theory either way. That's why I believe creationism should stay in a theology course and not the science classroom.

It's when you get back to the start of everything that it all gets messy. So where did the "pond scum" come from?? Wouldn't it be a THEORY to say it evolved from nothing since no one knows for sure? Someone please give me a scientific study that has backed up the origin of life. Evolution has some basis as to how some species have adapted to their climate but as far as where it all started, no one knows for sure. How can THAT be a scientific fact that is taught in schools?

 

[isucyfan]

How do you prove evolution? Didn't Darwin basically refute his own theory before he died? Which by the way was entitled Darwin's Theory of Evolution. Which was just that, a theory.

The deathbed recanting of evolution is a widely debated topic. He never publicly said anything of the sort, so if you believe he recanted the theory or regretted starting it, you are citing hearsay as evidence. Not saying if it did or didn't, but there were good reasons why people wanted those words to emanate from Darwin's mouth, so much so that the rumor may have been engineered.

 

[wonkadog]

It's more than a few animals. There are more than 350,000 species of beetles alone. Plus, Noah would have had to have on hand the various special diets needed for each animal. Not likely, unless you skip the logic and say God just made it happen.

That's what I think you're missing. Those that belive in God and his limitless/mind blowing power have absolutely no problem believing that. It doesn't sway someone who believes in God to say that it would be too hard/impossible for humans. That's exactly the point, it took God to keep those animals alive.

 

[cycloneworld]

I agree with what you're saying, but I think Christians get singled out because we are a Christian nation, and it's starting to lead to internal problems in our society as a whole IMO. Another thing is that there is psychological evidence that Homosexuality isn't a disorder/choice. In light of this kind of evidence, some claims from Christians on the subject don't hold water too well.

I think you can say and believe that homosexuality is "wrong" as you say, but by keeping them from having the same kind of rights that heterosexual couples can have is the issue. All of the homosexual people that I know, some even devout Christians, know that not everyone will think that homosexuality is an alright thing to be. BUT, that same belief should NOT keep or create laws that prohibit and/or hinder the homosexual lifestyle in any way.

I see what you are saying now. I agree to an extent.

If we let two men or two women get married...what will stop me and my best friend from getting married just to take advantage of the tax breaks...or adoption...or car insurance savings...etc, etc, etc.

Why would anyone stay single if it would benefit them to be "married"?

 

[Cyclone62]

It's when you get back to the start of everything that it all gets messy. So where did the "pond scum" come from?? Wouldn't it be a THEORY to say it evolved from nothing since no one knows for sure? Someone please give me a scientific study that has backed up the origin of life. Evolution has some basis as to how some species have adapted to their climate but as far as where it all started, no one knows for sure. How can THAT be a scientific fact that is taught in schools?

That is why it's called a theory and not a scientific law. The thing with creationism is that there's just no way to prove or disprove or even to make an attempt at it, that God exists. Without at least having a way to try the theory, it cannot be labeled as a SCIENTIFIC theory, just a Theological theory.

 

[CloneFan65]

If you don't believe that the Bible is God's inspired word, where do you get your basis for loving God? How do you determine what is required to love God. Do you just make it up as you go? If the Bible is not the word of God, then there is no basis for your faith.

So the only reason to believe the Bible is the Word of God is to have a basis for your faith? Christianity is about having a personal relationship with Christ, not about looking up rules in a book that you decide for no logical reason is the God's word.

 

[wonkadog]

I see what you are saying now. I agree to an extent.

If we let two men or two women get married...what will stop me and my best friend from getting married just to take advantage of the tax breaks...or adoption...or car insurance savings...etc, etc, etc.

Why would anyone stay single if it would benefit them to be "married"?

Exactly, you hit the nail on the head. I was going to respond with something about someone wanting to marry a dog and having the same marriage benefits but your way of explaining it was much better. :rolleyes5cz:

 

[isucyfan]

That's what I think you're missing. Those that belive in God and his limitless/mind blowing power have absolutely no problem believing that. It doesn't sway someone who believes in God to say that it would be too hard/impossible for humans. That's exactly the point, it took God to keep those animals alive.

To me, it's just too easy for all of the questions to be answered with, "God makes everything possible." Or "God works in mysterious ways." You can always fall back on that to "end" any argument, but it explains nothing. I do agree with you that this is the fundamental difference in people who believe and those who don't.

 

[tigershoops31]

The difference here, IMO, is that creationism is based on faith, and darwinism is based on science (right or wrong). Science can and should be taught in school, just as math or social studies is. Faith has its place to be taught, and that is church, IMO. As a country, we have gone too far towards the intermingling of church and state.

I know that this thread has gotten way off the topic it started with, and I'm going to further muddle things by my next question.
I would like somebody that is of the evolutionist train of thought to try to explain this to me: if we actually evolved slowly from monkeys, then why are there no "part man/part monkeys" out there and everything in between. Now before you respond with the simple "Natural Selection" comment, I would like to know how it was apparently in the monkeys' best interests to evolve into humans, but there are still monkeys? It just seems to me that if this really happened there would either be some evidence of beings in between the two, or no monkeys and all humans. Riddle me this?

Well there you have it ladies and gentlemen, Darwin was wrong, and now we can all get along and forget about our silly belief differences :baffled5wh:

 

[Cyclone62]

I see what you are saying now. I agree to an extent.

If we let two men or two women get married...what will stop me and my best friend from getting married just to take advantage of the tax breaks...or adoption...or car insurance savings...etc, etc, etc.

Why would anyone stay single if it would benefit them to be "married"?

What's been keeping men and women from doing this as it is now? That's why I don't like that argument against homosexual marriages.

Also Wonkadog, I think human relationships are just a tad bit different than a man and his dog. (The dog can't consent)

 

[htownclone]

It's a theory that has scientific findings and support to back it. Until you can somehow find a way to even (although not necessarily conclusively) show that there may be a being of higher order, it will not have any scientific support. There's just no way that we have as of now, to prove the theory either way. That's why I believe creationism should stay in a theology course and not the science classroom.

The reason creationism is hard to believe is because in our world, EVERYTHING has a beginning and an end. It's hard for us to grasp the concept that God always was because everything we see had a beginning and will eventually have an end. But if we think of it that way(reguardless if you're a christian and believe that God created the universe, or if you aren't and think the earth and planets were created from a huge explosion in space, or whatever other belief you have), that everything is created, you eventually have to say, everything was created by something else. And you can keep going back and saying "d" was created by "c" and "c" was created by "b", and "b" was created by "a" and eventually you get to something that always was.

It's really hard to explain this because it's hard to wrap our minds around it. I mean, if you look at a family tree... well I was created by my parents, who were created by their parents, and were created by their parents, etc etc. Well eventually it gets to the point of the first person that was. And that same principle can be used to argue this.

Eventually you trace everything back to 1 thing that always was. God said that he is the beginning and end. God always was.

 

[cycloneworld]

It's more than a few animals. There are more than 350,000 species of beetles alone. Plus, Noah would have had to have on hand the various special diets needed for each animal. Not likely, unless you skip the logic and say God just made it happen.

Even science contradicts itself though. The Law of Conservation of Mass says that matter cannot be created or destroyed...if this is true, then how did the earth form? How did the water form? And if your answer is that a bunch of dust particles created a big bang and somehow formed an earth with water and land and life forms....please realize that to many people, that sounds as absurd as Noah's Ark does to you.

 

[cyQlone]

"What's been keeping men and women from doing this as it is now?"


It hasn't, that is another reason why the divorce rate is so high due to the fact that people are marrying just to marry.

 

[Cyclone62]

The reason creationism is hard to believe is because in our world, EVERYTHING has a beginning and an end. It's hard for us to grasp the concept that God always was because everything we see had a beginning and will eventually have an end. But if we think of it that way(reguardless if you're a christian and believe that God created the universe, or if you aren't and think the earth and planets were created from a huge explosion in space, or whatever other belief you have), that everything is created, you eventually have to say, everything was created by something else. And you can keep going back and saying "d" was created by "c" and "c" was created by "b", and "b" was created by "a" and eventually you get to something that always was.

It's really hard to explain this because it's hard to wrap our minds around it. I mean, if you look at a family tree... well I was created by my parents, who were created by their parents, and were created by their parents, etc etc. Well eventually it gets to the point of the first person that was. And that same principle can be used to argue this.

Eventually you trace everything back to 1 thing that always was. God said that he is the beginning and end. God always was.

I know the Creationism Theory fairly thoroughly. I just don't think that it belongs in a science classroom because it cannot be SCIENTIFICALLY tested.