Good Lord

tigershoops31

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2006
5,451
378
83
Ames
I may be getting into this argument a bit late, but doesn't Jesus dying for our sins pretty much cover everything sinful? I think that's the point shakes20 was trying to make. If Jesus died for all of our sins, I doubt he said, "Oh yeah, that homosexuality rule is still in effect. Eww!"

The Bible says a lot of things that we no longer follow, and I think that arguing that Jesus died for all of our sins except for the ones still conveniently considered taboo by our modern society is a pretty weak argument.

That's not what I was saying at all...I was saying that in the New Testament, Jesus said that His dying on the cross was taking the place of the old way of sacrifices and abstaining from all of these foods. He's not giving everybody the green light to go sin all they want. His sacrifice was to cover sin if we repent and turn from it, and this includes homosexuality. But just like you can't think it's ok to go lie, cheat, and kill people just because Jesus died for your sins, you can't say that homosexuality is ok either. In my opinion, His dying on the cross only helps you out if you ask for forgiveness from your sins. It may not be any more wrong for a homosexual to continue in his ways than it would be for me to cheat on my wife continually, but both are still wrong.
 

htownclone

Well-Known Member
Jan 3, 2007
1,832
67
48
I may be getting into this argument a bit late, but doesn't Jesus dying for our sins pretty much cover everything sinful? I think that's the point shakes20 was trying to make. If Jesus died for all of our sins, I doubt he said, "Oh yeah, that homosexuality rule is still in effect. Eww!"

The Bible says a lot of things that we no longer follow, and I think that arguing that Jesus died for all of our sins except for the ones still conveniently considered taboo by our modern society is a pretty weak argument.

First of all, this isn't at all knocking democrats/republicans/anything politcal.

I don't think that is at all what tigershoops31 is saying. Jesus did die for ALL our sins, whether it's murdering someone or telling a "little white lie" or any other sin. What he is saying, and I agree, is that children shouldn't be shown that it is normal or okay, just the same way that children shouldn't be taught that it is okay to lie, or to hurt people, etc. I wouldn't want my kids watching something like that, just the same as I wouldn't want them to watch a show with someone killing someone, or using innappropriate language, lying, etc.

A person can believe what they want, but what I think is unfair is that liberals seemingly decide what the norm is and what can be taught because we can't infringe on their rights(like teaching creationism, etc) but instead we have to allow our kids to be taught that we evolved over billions of years from pond scum. I'm sure there are parents on CF that would say, "I don't want my kids being taught about creationism, It shouldn't be taught in schools." But for some reason we can't do the same about Darwinism which is their belief. (just an example)

I don't want to get in a debate about creationism and darwinism (although I could argue that forever). I am a teacher and it is a problem I see every day, that is, the problem that we cannot teach certain things in schools or have certain opinions cause it violates others' beliefs. Yet it is the exact same thing that is done to christians.

"I don't want you to teach my kid about creationism, it's against my beliefs."

"Ummm...what about teaching my kids darwinism, cause that is against my beliefs?"

It just seems like it is made out to be a 1 way street, which really is unfair.
 

jbhtexas

Well-Known Member
Oct 20, 2006
14,151
4,108
113
Arlington, TX
I am a Christian, but I certainly don't take the Bible literally. The Bible is not the word of God. The Gospels are accounts of Christ's life, and the rest of the New Testement contains letters that are written to convert the Gentiles and Jews of that day to Christianity. Where does God say homosexuality is wrong? Jesus' message was simple. Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus befriended prostitutes and tax collectors, considered by people of that day to be the biggest sinners.

How does one love God? In order to love God, one has to know something about him, particularly his character, what pleases him, what angers him, and what kind of behavior he expects from those he created. If you don't believe that the Bible is God's inspired word, where do you get your basis for loving God? How do you determine what is required to love God. Do you just make it up as you go? If the Bible is not the word of God, then there is no basis for your faith.

But back to the question...How does one love God? 1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God: that we keep his commandments". Love and obedience are tied together in numerous OT passages. One of the ways to love God is by doing what pleases him. You are correct in saying that God is the one who should define sin (what displeases him) and obedience (what pleases him). But he has already done that, and revealed these things to us through the Bible.

Jesus says in Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them." Jesus did not abolish our responsibility to obey God. The Law that Jesus is talking about is the Law that God revealed through Moses and is recorded for us in the OT. It's the same law that Jesus expounded when he taught in the synagogues. When you read that law, can you honestly come to the conclusion that homosexuality pleases God?

Yes, Jesus befriended sinners, of which I am one. But Jesus didn't condone sin, and the salvation he attained for us does not gives us license to sin and displease God. In fact, Jesus was pretty quick to judge sin. Remember when he cleared out the temple? The Samaritan woman at the well is a great example too. Yes he forgave her sins, but he also sternly scolded her about her lifestlye, and told her to stop her behavior of man-hopping and sleeping around.

Also, it's not for us to say what is or is not a sin. Because I accept Christ I do my best to be a good father, good husband, good friend, servant to those less fortunate, and an honest person. The one thing I try not to do is judge the actions of others. That's for God to do. "Judge not lest ye be judged."

Please read Matt 7:1 (and the parallel passage in Luke) in context, and study what it is saying, particularly the original Greek words. When you do, you will find that "Judge not lest ye be judged" means something quite different than the way you are using it above.

As a society we punish those that infringe on the rights of others, not because we believe stealing, rape, murder, etc. are sins, but because our society is based on the "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Our laws are based on protecting citizens, not on morality.

Well, I've read some of the writings of the founding fathers, and if they were still alive today, I'm pretty sure your statement would make most of them very sad.
 

AirWalke

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2006
6,790
1,272
113
Des Moines
In my opinion, His dying on the cross only helps you out if you ask for forgiveness from your sins. It may not be any more wrong for a homosexual to continue in his ways than it would be for me to cheat on my wife continually, but both are still wrong.

Ah, okay, I see where you're coming from now. Thanks for clearing that up. I still don't agree, but continuing an argument over religion is just endless bickering for me, so I'll back down.
 

CyGal

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2006
2,664
51
48
WDM
Personally I have to take the bible with a grain of salt and remember that MAN wrote it, even if it is based off of God's words. And it will probably stay that way for me until someone can show me proof of a flood that covered the land as it does in the Noah's Ark tale. As far as science is concerned at this point, it didn't happen as to good book says it does - perhaps a little embellishment on MAN's part in a story that was meant to show people what may happen if you don't live a good life.
 

cycloneworld

Facebook Knows All
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Mar 20, 2006
27,994
16,914
113
Urbandale, IA
In our society, all race, religions, sexual orientation, color, etc. are to be treated equal.

What I don't understand is many people think it's okay to preach about tolerance and homosexuality but it's not okay for other to preach about religion. People preach about race all of the time. Why can't people preach about religion? Why is that taboo now?

If we are going to equate race, sex, and religion...then let's start treating each the same way.
 

ISUFan22

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2006
33,922
904
113
Denver, CO
Personally I have to take the bible with a grain of salt and remember that MAN wrote it, even if it is based off of God's words. And it will probably stay that way for me until someone can show me proof of a flood that covered the land as it does in the Noah's Ark tale. As far as science is concerned at this point, it didn't happen as to good book says it does - perhaps a little embellishment on MAN's part in a story that was meant to show people what may happen if you don't live a good life.

Nice job.

That's all I'm going to say about this post/subject.
 

isucyfan

Speechless
Apr 21, 2006
21,005
4,550
113
51
Saint Paul, MN
First of all, this isn't at all knocking democrats/republicans/anything politcal.


I don't want to get in a debate about creationism and darwinism (although I could argue that forever). I am a teacher and it is a problem I see every day, that is, the problem that we cannot teach certain things in schools or have certain opinions cause it violates others' beliefs. Yet it is the exact same thing that is done to christians.

"I don't want you to teach my kid about creationism, it's against my beliefs."

"Ummm...what about teaching my kids darwinism, cause that is against my beliefs?"

It just seems like it is made out to be a 1 way street, which really is unfair.

The difference here, IMO, is that creationism is based on faith, and darwinism is based on science (right or wrong). Science can and should be taught in school, just as math or social studies is. Faith has its place to be taught, and that is church, IMO. As a country, we have gone too far towards the intermingling of church and state.
 

CloneFan65

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2006
2,601
698
113
Phoenix, AZ
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I commanded you, neither shall ye diminish anything from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you" (Deut. 4:2)

To me that's saying that the bible IS the word of God, although it doesn't tell you to necessarily take it all literally.

“Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." (Leviticus 18:22)

Enough said on the second point.

You're quoting Old Testement. The Old Testement is mostly parables and legends. It's based on oral traditions, not recorded fact. Christianity is based on the New Testement and the word of Christ. If you believe homosexuality is wrong, then you should resist those urges in yourself, but don't judge others that don't live by your own rules.
 

tigershoops31

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2006
5,451
378
83
Ames
Personally I have to take the bible with a grain of salt and remember that MAN wrote it, even if it is based off of God's words. And it will probably stay that way for me until someone can show me proof of a flood that covered the land as it does in the Noah's Ark tale. As far as science is concerned at this point, it didn't happen as to good book says it does - perhaps a little embellishment on MAN's part in a story that was meant to show people what may happen if you don't live a good life.

History is not my strong suit, but I took a History of the Bible class in college, and our professor said that they've actually found archaelogical evidence to support a flood that would have covered all of the ancient discovered world (I think its Mesopatamia?). I always thought that was interesting to think about that it might have covered up that whole area (which actually was their world) in the time of Noah.
 

Cyclone62

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2007
9,115
213
63
Oldpeopleville
In our society, all race, religions, sexual orientation, color, etc. are to be treated equal.

What I don't understand is many people think it's okay to preach about tolerance and homosexuality but it's not okay for other to preach about religion. People preach about race all of the time. Why can't people preach about religion? Why is that taboo now?

If we are going to equate race, sex, and religion...then let's start treating each the same way.

Actually, now there is quite a bit of preaching of religions going on. There are a lot of people who don't think that the Islamic faith is ok because of extremism. The same can be said about Christianity as well. I think the reason that it appears to be taboo is that, whether we like it or not, we are a Christian nation that tries to make many contradictory laws/ideals. For example, the Declaration of Independence says that "All men are created equal" and that there are "three inalienable rights: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." Then we go and keep homosexuals from being able to legally commit to one singular person because "the bible says it's wrong."

As far as the science and creationism debates in the classroom, as a fellow educator, I'm not sure creationism falls under the category of science. If we had a definable way to show that there IS a higher being (I believe there is, but belief and scientific fact aren't the same), then it will hit the science curriculum, as it should at that point. As it stands today, most people just want to keep religious studies, which as it is today in my eyes, and the creationism theory out of scientific fact. As for saying that by not teaching it in the science department, then we get into the argument that if we let untestable theories into science classrooms, how far is too far? For example, say we let creationism into the science classroom, then you have a Scientologist family move into the neighborhood. Their belief that an alien named Xagnu put alien souls on earth is also an untestable theory. There's no definite way to prove that their theory is either correct or incorrect. But would that theory be any less welcome in the science classroom than creationism in your eyes? I know the "slippery slope" argument; that's what this is saying, but should untestable theories such as these two be more fitting in a theology classroom, or science classroom?
 

tigershoops31

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2006
5,451
378
83
Ames
You're quoting Old Testement. The Old Testement is mostly parables and legends. It's based on oral traditions, not recorded fact. Christianity is based on the New Testement and the word of Christ. If you believe homosexuality is wrong, then you should resist those urges in yourself, but don't judge others that don't live by your own rules.

I never judged anybody or said that they have to change. I was simply responding to somebody who said that it doesn't say anywhere in the bible that homosexuality is wrong. I prefer to stick to the new testament myself, but you can't argue God's thoughts on the matter.
 

jparker22

Member
May 1, 2006
481
0
16
48
Ames
Sure you can hoops you cited a very updated version of the bible and the whole thing is based on translations to english. If put on trial there would be plenty of reasonable doubt. Just another side of the issue.
 

htownclone

Well-Known Member
Jan 3, 2007
1,832
67
48
Personally I have to take the bible with a grain of salt and remember that MAN wrote it, even if it is based off of God's words. And it will probably stay that way for me until someone can show me proof of a flood that covered the land as it does in the Noah's Ark tale. As far as science is concerned at this point, it didn't happen as to good book says it does - perhaps a little embellishment on MAN's part in a story that was meant to show people what may happen if you don't live a good life.

Tale? The flood can be proved. How would you explain the fossilized remains of marine life that have been found on top of EVERY major mountain range in the world?
 

cycloneworld

Facebook Knows All
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Mar 20, 2006
27,994
16,914
113
Urbandale, IA
Actually, now there is quite a bit of preaching of religions going on. There are a lot of people who don't think that the Islamic faith is ok because of extremism. The same can be said about Christianity as well. I think the reason that it appears to be taboo is that, whether we like it or not, we are a Christian nation that tries to make many contradictory laws/ideals. For example, the Declaration of Independence says that "All men are created equal" and that there are "three inalienable rights: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." Then we go and keep homosexuals from being able to legally commit to one singular person because "the bible says it's wrong."

We are told to be tolerant of people from the Islamic faith because they aren't all bad...and I agree with this.

But at the same time, Christians are being singled out for their stance on homosexuality...shouldn't we be tolerant of their view just like we should be tolerant of Muslims? Just like we should be to homosexuals?

It's a give and take IMO. Homosexuals should understand peoples' rights who believe it is 100% wrong because of their faith...and vice versa.

It's my right to believe homosexuality is wrong and it's my right to believe its okay. I don't think it's right to hammer people because they believe either way.
 

htownclone

Well-Known Member
Jan 3, 2007
1,832
67
48
Actually, now there is quite a bit of preaching of religions going on. There are a lot of people who don't think that the Islamic faith is ok because of extremism. The same can be said about Christianity as well. I think the reason that it appears to be taboo is that, whether we like it or not, we are a Christian nation that tries to make many contradictory laws/ideals. For example, the Declaration of Independence says that "All men are created equal" and that there are "three inalienable rights: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." Then we go and keep homosexuals from being able to legally commit to one singular person because "the bible says it's wrong."

As far as the science and creationism debates in the classroom, as a fellow educator, I'm not sure creationism falls under the category of science. If we had a definable way to show that there IS a higher being (I believe there is, but belief and scientific fact aren't the same), then it will hit the science curriculum, as it should at that point. As it stands today, most people just want to keep religious studies, which as it is today in my eyes, and the creationism theory out of scientific fact. As for saying that by not teaching it in the science department, then we get into the argument that if we let untestable theories into science classrooms, how far is too far? For example, say we let creationism into the science classroom, then you have a Scientologist family move into the neighborhood. Their belief that an alien named Xagnu put alien souls on earth is also an untestable theory. There's no definite way to prove that their theory is either correct or incorrect. But would that theory be any less welcome in the science classroom than creationism in your eyes? I know the "slippery slope" argument; that's what this is saying, but should untestable theories such as these two be more fitting in a theology classroom, or science classroom?

How do you prove evolution? Didn't Darwin basically refute his own theory before he died? Which by the way was entitled Darwin's Theory of Evolution. Which was just that, a theory.
 

isucyfan

Speechless
Apr 21, 2006
21,005
4,550
113
51
Saint Paul, MN
Tale? The flood can be proved. How would you explain the fossilized remains of marine life that have been found on top of EVERY major mountain range in the world?

The only way the Noah's Ark story can be taken seriously is if it is taken metaphorically, IMO. This is not history. It is impossible to think that the ark could have held two of every animal and the animals' food.