Does attending a more selective college equal a bigger paycheck?

[Sigmapolis]

I am detecting (and not surprisingly) not many people in here ever had ambitions of admission to an "elite" educational institution either for themselves or their children, which is understandable for a forum of Iowa State-related people.

All the prudent advice you all are relating about your educational journeys or what you have told friends and family... knocking out general education credits at a junior college is a good idea, no shame in the trade schools if that kind of stuff draws your interest more than the books and the idea of working at a computer all day... would cause your standard parent in Arlington County, Virginia to die inside to think about it.

No way their kid is doing anything less than the same things they do as successful if burnt out attorneys, NGO workers, or ex-Hill staffers turned lobbyists.

 

[Clone9]

That the stats in the OP looked at 4 years after graduation is interesting. I wonder what it would look like after 10 or 20 years? It is possible that a lot of students from both groups of institutions go to graduate or professional school after graduation, in which case their salaries after 4 years would be minimal. But if you wait another 5-10 years, it would be a different story. Perhaps total lifetime earnings would be the best metric (although that would be essentially impossible to study).

 

[VeloClone]

It was nice having our high school partnering with DMACC, where AP classes got you college credit, so if you took an AP class you didn't have to worry too much.

Got Calc I knocked out via our AP Calc high school class. AP Chem ended up knocking out two chemistry classes at ISU that I needed to take (177 & 178), which was a pleasant surprise.

My daughter already has credits in a couple of areas - as a high school freshman. It certainly gives you a leg up.

 

[VeloClone]

I am detecting (and not surprisingly) not many people in here ever had ambitions of admission to an "elite" educational institution either for themselves or their children, which is understandable for a forum of Iowa State-related people.

All the prudent advice you all are relating about your educational journeys or what you have told friends and family... knocking out general education credits at a junior college is a good idea, no shame in the trade schools if that kind of stuff draws your interest more than the books and the idea of working at a computer all day... would cause your standard parent in Arlington County, Virginia to die inside to think about it.

No way their kid is doing anything less than the same things they do as successful if burnt out attorneys, NGO workers, or ex-Hill staffers turned lobbyists.

I applied to MIT. I didn't go there and the way my life curve went it was really a good thing I didn't.

 

[cycloneML]

No

 

[Cycsk]

My daughter already has credits in a couple of areas - as a high school freshman. It certainly gives you a leg up.

Doesn't the prevalence of earning college credit so early in high school draw into question the concept of high school and college each "needing" four years each? Generally speaking, "years" seems like a bad way to measure learning.

How do education administrators hold so tightly to their monopoly of the K-16 years, but also load the system with exceptions and short-cuts? No doubt Velo's daughter is brilliant, but I know of many other instances where I wouldn't look at their freshman classes and consider them college-credit-worthy (unless I really dialed down my expectation of what college credit is supposed to represent).

 

[VeloClone]

Doesn't the prevalence of earning college credit so early in high school draw into question the concept of high school and college each "needing" four years each? Generally speaking, "years" seems like a bad way to measure learning.

How do education administrators hold so tightly to their monopoly of the K-16 years, but also load the system with exceptions and short-cuts? No doubt Velo's daughter is brilliant, but I know of many other instances where I wouldn't look at their freshman classes and consider them college-credit-worthy (unless I really dialed down my expectation of what college credit is supposed to represent).

AP classes by definition are supposed to be advanced beyond what is supposed to be high school level.

 

[brokenloginagain]

my experience has been that both the ivies and state schools have their fair share of talented, hard working, capable people....and complete idiots.

 

[Cycsk]

AP classes by definition are supposed to be advanced beyond what is supposed to be high school level.

If the rest of high school is necessary, then how can someone do post-high school work as a freshman? And why do they need to keep taking four years of high school if they are already operating at a college level. AP may be advanced over standard high school, but I haven't seen any AP classes for freshman that truly depend on the content of four years of high school knowledge in the subject.

 

[Sigmapolis]

This is incredibly harsh way to lay everything out, but it definitely applies to some of the graduates of self-styled "elite" schools (and the parents pushing their children towards such institutions at all costs) that I have met out here over the years --



Notice it did not say this was contained to the types that are at least somewhat intelligent but have far too grandiose conceptions of themselves. It applies to everybody.

 

[GrappleCy]

AP classes by definition are supposed to be advanced beyond what is supposed to be high school level.

Thinking back most of my AP classes were kind of a joke and not in any way similar to a college class as far as workload, expectations, or what we learned. Especially outside of STEM stuff.

 

[SpokaneCY]

College is not a test of intelligence. It's merely a test of patience.

 

[OnlyCyclones]

I know the admissions bar isn't high, but I wonder how inflated the acceptance rate of Iowa public colleges are, because you can easily look up the RAI score and see if you'll get in ahead of time. I know someone who would have applied to ISU but would have cut it really close with the RAI and decided to go to CC for a year instead of seeing if he'd get in or not. If you know you won't get in, you won't apply.

 

[Sigmapolis]

College is not a test of intelligence. It's merely a test of patience.

I would argue college is really a test of three things --

(1.) Intelligence. Yes, it requires (or it should require) at least above average cognitive and reasoning skills to finish any undergraduate curricula.

(2.) Conscientious. Do you play well with others? Are you deferential but not slavish to your superiors? Are you congenial and professional generally?

(3.) Conformity. Above all, do you do what is expected of you, such as having to earn a degree (even if pretty useless) to receive a "good job?"

A lack of #1 simply means you cannot handle the job. A lack of #2 means you're a nightmare to work with even if pretty intelligent (we have all had incidents like this) and probably not going to work out in the end. A lack of #3 means you are talented but uncoachable and ultimately a rebel, and you are unlikely to put yourself in a position to land a good job in the first place. We have all known people with good cognitive and analytical abilities who just did not have the discipline or patience to grind out the degree -- imagine your typical articulate or even erudite teenage slacker who can sometimes compete with graduate students on topics that interest them but just cannot do it in the classroom.

A person without #3 never even has a chance at an interview.

A good prospective employee is all three.

Notice I said education "tests" these things -- not necessarily installs them. I tend to think higher levels of education are mostly signaling, but that is another discussion. I just find it interesting people are oftentimes desperate for the best of the best signals (e.g., a Harvard or Stanford diploma) but it might not really end up mattering all that much.

 

[madguy30]

While I am a firm believer that people CAN overcome a tough upbringing and environment to become successful - move up the ladder - it's harder than just staying level.

I once read the most important decision you will make to determine your success, health, income, happiness is: choosing the right parents.

Yep and it's easier said than done to just 'get over it' for people that have had negative things instilled. The things I had instilled from like 7 years old are still what I hold today and the outcomes are generally positive...it's the same for people that struggle.

It was interesting as one family in my hometown with 3 kids; one of those things where things seemed fine but really they weren't, and the types of people the kids surrounded themselves ultimately led to their success. 2 hung with a rougher crowd and had a rough go of it, and 1 was the opposite and ended up being very successful in working his way up in NYC.

Last I knew the 2 with rougher situations eventually started surrounding themselves with generally healthier people and had at least more positive outcomes than prior.

 

[SpokaneCY]

I tend to think higher levels of education are mostly signaling, but that is another discussion.

I just find it interesting people are oftentimes desperate for the best of the best signals (e.g., a Harvard or Stanford diploma) but it might not really end up mattering all that much.

I left a Masters program at Gonzaga because it was useless. In fact, my advisor told me I couldn't get anything more from the program BUT the degree and I've never hunted credentials for the sake of credentials.

And I liken choosing an elite school to buying a luxury car brand. Symbols of status at best.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I left a Masters program at Gonzaga because it was useless. In fact, my advisor told me I couldn't get anything more from the program BUT the degree and I've never hunted credentials for the sake of credentials.

And I liken choosing an elite school to buying a luxury car brand. Symbols of status at best.

I think that, if people were truthful to themselves, most of what we learn in school is pretty useless outside of that classroom. That becomes truer the further you go up the educational attainment ladder. Everybody needs to be literate and numerate to get by in our society, but by the time you get to high school, most of the curricula is useful only referencing itself for those of us who will not be teachers or professors.

Admitting you spent 12+ years on stuff that is actively useless is hard to do, though, and nobody wants to be the social pariah that says education is anything else but an unabashed good all of the time. There are exceptions to this rule... I would not want to turn young doctors or engineers loose on the public without making them learn at least the basics of their profession... but even then, they learn a ton more about their actual jobs once they start working than they do in an antiseptic classroom.

Source -- my wife, who told me she uses maybe 1% of her undergraduate degree and 10% of her medical school training regularly... she learned to be a doctor during her residency. A residency is essentially an old school learn-on-the-job apprenticeship.

Most of us are/were chasing degrees only as credentials. Some exceptions, yes.

The difference with doing that with degrees instead of gaudy sports cars is that you are less likely to have backlash with the degree... more people are going to roll their eyes at your Ferrari 448 than at your Harvard degree... and the degree is an investment that can, at least in theory, earn you skills or job opportunities. The car is just blowing money. Less people are going to call blowing money on school exactly that.

 

[madguy30]

I think that, if people were truthful to themselves, most of what we learn in school is pretty useless outside of that classroom. That becomes truer the further you go up the educational attainment ladder. Everybody needs to be literate and numerate to get by in our society, but by the time you get to high school, most of the curricula is useful only referencing itself for those of us who will not be teachers or professors.

Admitting you spent 12+ years on stuff that is actively useless is hard to do, though, and nobody wants to be the social pariah that says education is anything else but an unabashed good all of the time. There are exceptions to this rule... I would not want to turn young doctors or engineers loose on the public without making them learn at least the basics of their profession... but even then, they learn a ton more about their actual jobs once they start working than they do in an antiseptic classroom.

Source -- my wife, who told me she uses maybe 1% of her undergraduate degree and 10% of her medical school training regularly... she learned to be a doctor during her residency. A residency is essentially an old school learn-on-the-job apprenticeship.

Most of us are/were chasing degrees only as credentials. Some exceptions, yes.

The difference with doing that with degrees instead of gaudy sports cars is that you are less likely to have backlash with the degree... more people are going to roll their eyes at your Ferrari 448 than at your Harvard degree... and the degree is an investment that can, at least in theory, earn you skills or job opportunities. The car is just blowing money. Less people are going to call blowing money on school exactly that.

I won't roll my eyes at someone for having a degree from somewhere 'elite' because I likely won't ask them because I really don't care, but if they need to tell me many times or something I'll likely have less respect for them. OR if they act like I'm less qualified for a job because of where I went when in reality many jobs at the end of the day rely on your experience in the job.

Same with incompetent co workers who constantly have to tout the same type of thing.

 

[cysmiley]

I am detecting (and not surprisingly) not many people in here ever had ambitions of admission to an "elite" educational institution either for themselves or their children, which is understandable for a forum of Iowa State-related people.

All the prudent advice you all are relating about your educational journeys or what you have told friends and family... knocking out general education credits at a junior college is a good idea, no shame in the trade schools if that kind of stuff draws your interest more than the books and the idea of working at a computer all day... would cause your standard parent in Arlington County, Virginia to die inside to think about it.

No way their kid is doing anything less than the same things they do as successful if burnt out attorneys, NGO workers, or ex-Hill staffers turned lobbyists.

My daughters had scholarship offers to MIT and Washington University/St Louis. They visited both institutions (got noticed because they were top students at Central Campus in DM). They felt the actual learning environment at ISU was more conducive to their success than either one of those Institutions. Their emphasis was intellectual curiosity, not who you network with to get a foot in the door, or the so called prestige of the institution; but they also had a confidence that the key to success was what they learned, not where they learned it. They felt those opportunities at ISU fit their culture, and thus allowed them greater success opportunities. plus we got to tailgate together. LOL which of course would be my top criterion

 

[Sigmapolis]

I won't roll my eyes at someone for having a degree from somewhere 'elite' because I likely won't ask them because I really don't care, but if they need to tell me many times or something I'll likely have less respect for them. OR if they act like I'm less qualified for a job because of where I went when in reality many jobs at the end of the day rely on your experience in the job.

Same with incompetent co workers who constantly have to tout the same type of thing.

You have probably not dealt with this kind of person nearly as much as I have. The genus of the insecure "racer rat" is far more common in this part of the country.