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NEICyFan

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Feb 10, 2011
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CyCloneRastlinG said:
Of the top 100 guys he listed, only 1 was ranked outside the top 35 so not sure what your point was. And both Frost boys are now All-Americans and neither were ranked top 100. Kid from Iowa generally don’t get ranked high because of a limited in-season schedule where they stay inside the state. Doesn’t mean the talent isn’t there and they can’t develop once they get into a college room. Stephen Buchanan wasn’t a top 100 recruit
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I was supporting him, suggesting another metric, not disagreeing with him.

The higher end Iowa high schoolers do wrestle out of state during the season, and they all spend the entire summer wrestling out of state at national events. They are ranked where they are because that’s what they earned. Iowa high school talent just isn’t very good (from a quantity standpoint) and depending on it to have a successful high end D1 program is a big time losing proposition, to say nothing of trying to do it while battling with Iowa.

There’s data out there about high school rankings and D1 success. There are always guys ranked lower who AA but it’s still awfully rare. If you think about it, only 80 guys AA each year while there are about 200-250 top 50 recruits in school at any given time.
 
CyCloneRastlinG

CyCloneRastlinG

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Oct 15, 2017
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NEICyFan said:
I was supporting him, suggesting another metric, not disagreeing with him.

The higher end Iowa high schoolers do wrestle out of state during the season, and they all spend the entire summer wrestling out of state at national events. They are ranked where they are because that’s what they earned. Iowa high school talent just isn’t very good (from a quantity standpoint) and depending on it to have a successful high end D1 program is a big time losing proposition, to say nothing of trying to do it while battling with Iowa.

There’s data out there about high school rankings and D1 success. There are always guys ranked lower who AA but it’s still awfully rare. If you think about it, only 80 guys AA each year while there are about 200-250 top 50 recruits in school at any given time.
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What you aren't taking into account is that most kids in Iowa play another sport outside of wrestling, especially the kids that weigh over 150 pounds. The specialization isn't as prevalent in Iowa as it is in other states, although it's moving in that direction. So a lot of these kids haven't focused on wrestling year round like they would n NJ, CA, PA, and OH, Max McEnelly is a great example of a multiple sport athlete who was undervalued because he didn't focus singularly on wrestling until he got to Minnesota. That's why you see so many kids ranked in states like NJ and PA, along with great programs and coaches. But they can easily put their name on the map once they get to college. Is it hard to AA? absolutely. But the quality of high school kids is still there with the population here.

Does it mean there isn't talent in the midwest? That would be dumb to say that just because they aren't a top 50 recruit they can't develop in a college room. UNI and SDSU are doing a great job of developing midwest kids who were undervalued or underranked. Also there are only a couple of teams competing out of state and they aren't competing in Beast of the East, Ironman, Doc Buchanan, and Powerade. Again Iowa isn't a very big state population wise but produces a lot of talented wrestlers. Kids in Iowa just happen to also have the ability to play football and baseball for their schools.
 
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crablegs

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Mar 28, 2016
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CyCloneRastlinG said:
What you aren't taking into account is that most kids in Iowa play another sport outside of wrestling, especially the kids that weigh over 150 pounds. The specialization isn't as prevalent in Iowa as it is in other states, although it's moving in that direction. So a lot of these kids haven't focused on wrestling year round like they would n NJ, CA, PA, and OH, Max McEnelly is a great example of a multiple sport athlete who was undervalued because he didn't focus singularly on wrestling until he got to Minnesota. That's why you see so many kids ranked in states like NJ and PA, along with great programs and coaches. But they can easily put their name on the map once they get to college. Is it hard to AA? absolutely. But the quality of high school kids is still there with the population here.

Does it mean there isn't talent in the midwest? That would be dumb to say that just because they aren't a top 50 recruit they can't develop in a college room. UNI and SDSU are doing a great job of developing midwest kids who were undervalued or underranked. Also there are only a couple of teams competing out of state and they aren't competing in Beast of the East, Ironman, Doc Buchanan, and Powerade. Again Iowa isn't a very big state population wise but produces a lot of talented wrestlers. Kids in Iowa just happen to also have the ability to play football and baseball for their schools.
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It’s possible but extremely rare. Give me an example of a UNI Iowa kid that did great but wasn’t a high recruit.
 
CyCloneRastlinG

CyCloneRastlinG

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crablegs said:
It’s possible but extremely rare. Give me an example of a UNI Iowa kid that did great but wasn’t a high recruit.
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Downey wasn’t a big recruit at all and he’s beat Chittum h2h 3 of 4 times and Chittum was the top p4p kid in his class, regardless of weight. Downey could still end up being a 2x AA, a huge accomplishment. We aren’t that far removed from Drew foster winning a national title there, extremely hard to do. Or Tanner Sloan making the NCAA finals and was a 2x AA. His other option for college wrestling was COE college, that’s crazy. We’ve had a ton of talent kids here lately who just haven’t gotten the job done. Devos was also #76 in his class and ended up a 2x AA.
People have unrealistic expectations because Penn state is taking the best kids who are winning age level world medals and putting them on the top of the podium. Iowa state has had a lot of really good kids the past couple years not even AA though and now they are leaving. Getting kids to be 2 or 3x AA’s is a huge accomplishment. Another example of an Iowa kid is our own Marcus Coleman.

If these kids are regularly 2x or 3x AA’s when their career is over here, this team will be contending for a trophy year over year.
 
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NEICyFan

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Feb 10, 2011
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CyCloneRastlinG said:
What you aren't taking into account is that most kids in Iowa play another sport outside of wrestling, especially the kids that weigh over 150 pounds. The specialization isn't as prevalent in Iowa as it is in other states, although it's moving in that direction. So a lot of these kids haven't focused on wrestling year round like they would n NJ, CA, PA, and OH, Max McEnelly is a great example of a multiple sport athlete who was undervalued because he didn't focus singularly on wrestling until he got to Minnesota. That's why you see so many kids ranked in states like NJ and PA, along with great programs and coaches. But they can easily put their name on the map once they get to college. Is it hard to AA? absolutely. But the quality of high school kids is still there with the population here.

Does it mean there isn't talent in the midwest? That would be dumb to say that just because they aren't a top 50 recruit they can't develop in a college room. UNI and SDSU are doing a great job of developing midwest kids who were undervalued or underranked. Also there are only a couple of teams competing out of state and they aren't competing in Beast of the East, Ironman, Doc Buchanan, and Powerade. Again Iowa isn't a very big state population wise but produces a lot of talented wrestlers. Kids in Iowa just happen to also have the ability to play football and baseball for their schools.
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The reason why doesn’t matter. The fact remains that Iowa high schools are not producing high level D1 talent. It doesn’t matter how many words you use to explain it away, the fact remains.

CyCloneRastlinG said:
Downey wasn’t a big recruit at all and he’s beat Chittum h2h 3 of 4 times and Chittum was the top p4p kid in his class, regardless of weight.
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And Downey hasn’t reached the podium yet. Heck he wasn’t even R12 this year.

A team of Cael Happels is going to get your butt beat on the national level. Not a recipe.
 
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Matrat

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Feb 11, 2018
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NEICyFan said:
The reason why doesn’t matter. The fact remains that Iowa high schools are not producing high level D1 talent. It doesn’t matter how many words you use to explain it away, the fact remains.



And Downey hasn’t reached the podium yet. Heck he wasn’t even R12 this year.

A team of Cael Happels is going to get your butt beat on the national level. Not a recipe.
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Well, 10 Cael Happels would have scored 120 points this year, good for second.
 
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CyCloneRastlinG

CyCloneRastlinG

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Oct 15, 2017
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Iowa
NEICyFan said:
The reason why doesn’t matter. The fact remains that Iowa high schools are not producing high level D1 talent. It doesn’t matter how many words you use to explain it away, the fact remains.



And Downey hasn’t reached the podium yet. Heck he wasn’t even R12 this year.

A team of Cael Happels is going to get your butt beat on the national level. Not a recipe.
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The state of Iowa has had a finalist the past 3 seasons. Drake scored 19.5 points at nationals, ISU scored 18 points at nationals as a whole team..

As pointed out Cael Happel scored 12 points. Devos scored 9. Kueter got 5.5

So those 4 (just 4) Iowa kids alone get you 9th place at Nationals.

There is so much talent just in neighboring states that aren't "the elite" kids also. Illinois kids Caliendo who was 52 in his class and Vincent Robinson who was 46. Those 2 combined for 2 finalists, 39 points, and 12th place.

Everyone would have taken Swiderski and Chittum over those guys. Chittum got us 1.5 points
 
CyCloneRastlinG

CyCloneRastlinG

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Oct 15, 2017
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10 of the 20 finalists this year were from states touching Iowa or in Iowa. That's 50% in case you needed me to do the math for you. If guys like chittum, swiderski, frost boys, ech, bastida, tate naak, rojas, riggins, euton, paniro, bartelt all make the podium for isu a couple in their career, this team is never out of the top 6.
 
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NEICyFan

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Feb 10, 2011
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CyCloneRastlinG said:
The state of Iowa has had a finalist the past 3 seasons. Drake scored 19.5 points at nationals, ISU scored 18 points at nationals as a whole team..

As pointed out Cael Happel scored 12 points. Devos scored 9. Kueter got 5.5

So those 4 (just 4) Iowa kids alone get you 9th place at Nationals.

There is so much talent just in neighboring states that aren't "the elite" kids also. Illinois kids Caliendo who was 52 in his class and Vincent Robinson who was 46. Those 2 combined for 2 finalists, 39 points, and 12th place.

Everyone would have taken Swiderski and Chittum over those guys. Chittum got us 1.5 points
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And this is a likely rare moment that there are two elite Iowa recruits in college at the same time in Kueter and Ayala.

And that also assumes 9th is somehow really good. It’s not.

CyCloneRastlinG said:
10 of the 20 finalists this year were from states touching Iowa or in Iowa. That's 50% in case you needed me to do the math for you. If guys like chittum, swiderski, frost boys, ech, bastida, tate naak, rojas, riggins, euton, paniro, bartelt all make the podium for isu a couple in their career, this team is never out of the top 6.
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Sayjng the upper Midwest is good at wrestling is quite the hot take. We’re talking about Iowa.

Matrat said:
Most teams would take 120 points once 4 years.
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And struggling to get in the top 15 and not having a single AA the other 3? Not many fans of major programs are going to take that. Plus 10 AAs has only happened twice. A team full of guys who make the podium once is not a good thing.
 
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crablegs

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Mar 28, 2016
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CyCloneRastlinG said:
Downey wasn’t a big recruit at all and he’s beat Chittum h2h 3 of 4 times and Chittum was the top p4p kid in his class, regardless of weight. Downey could still end up being a 2x AA, a huge accomplishment. We aren’t that far removed from Drew foster winning a national title there, extremely hard to do. Or Tanner Sloan making the NCAA finals and was a 2x AA. His other option for college wrestling was COE college, that’s crazy. We’ve had a ton of talent kids here lately who just haven’t gotten the job done. Devos was also #76 in his class and ended up a 2x AA.
People have unrealistic expectations because Penn state is taking the best kids who are winning age level world medals and putting them on the top of the podium. Iowa state has had a lot of really good kids the past couple years not even AA though and now they are leaving. Getting kids to be 2 or 3x AA’s is a huge accomplishment. Another example of an Iowa kid is our own Marcus Coleman.

If these kids are regularly 2x or 3x AA’s when their career is over here, this team will be contending for a trophy year over year.
Click to expand...
0 AAs from Chittum or Downey. Do better
 
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