*** Official IOWA STATE vs #19 Kansas State Game(Day) Thread ***

[HFCS]

Will you at least admit that the RBs averaging 2.8 yards per carry against Iowa is massively different than the 0.5 yards per carry that you originally claimed? If you do that on first and second down to make it a 3rd and 4, it doesn't exactly seem like an automatic turnover to me.


If you liked the Texas play calling, then I feel obligated to point out that against Texas, RB carries accounted for a higher percentage of overall offensive plays than against Ohio (30% vs. 28% against Ohio).

Play calling definitely did improve and the run game got more creative after the non-conference and OSU game. But I think fans have a tendency to ignore simple play calls when they work but also blame them when they don't. If Noel had gotten pushed out of bounds after a 10 yard gain on the third and 16 play that scored a TD, would it be a great play call or would it be a massive mistake throwing it so short of the line to gain?

It’s about predictability in the situations of games, not just some net total. In the early season it was painfully obvious what we’d do. Every Joe Fan here knew exactly what was coming, opposing coaches knew it even more because they know more about football than any of us.

I think you’re just being obtuse at this point because the play calling obviously improved and became less predictable. I can’t understand this desire to think they never adapted and it was all gaining experience that turned obviously poor game plans into better game plans.

I’m thrilled they were mature enough to adapt and trust the team.

 

[Stormin]

It’s about predictability in the situations of games, not just some net total. In the early season it was painfully obvious what we’d do. Every Joe Fan here knew exactly what was coming, opposing coaches knew it even more because they know more about football than any of us.

I think you’re just being obtuse at this point because the play calling obviously improved and became less predictable. I can’t understand this desire to think they never adapted and it was all gaining experience that turned obviously poor game plans into better game plans.

I’m thrilled they were mature enough to adapt and trust the team.

First play Saturday night was a run by Abu Sama up the middle. Predictable play. 3 pancake blocks made on that play Saturday night. Touchdown. On that play it was all about execution.

 

[MJ271]

It’s about predictability in the situations of games, not just some net total. In the early season it was painfully obvious what we’d do. Every Joe Fan here knew exactly what was coming, opposing coaches knew it even more because they know more about football than any of us.

I think you’re just being obtuse at this point because the play calling obviously improved and became less predictable. I can’t understand this desire to think they never adapted and it was all gaining experience that turned obviously poor game plans into better game plans.

I’m thrilled they were mature enough to adapt and trust the team.

I'd argue that you're the one being obtuse considering you pretty much ignored everything I said.

I did say that the play calling improved. They did adapt and they also adapted as players have developed this season. But I also believe that every game depends a lot more on execution than play calling. It's a lot more difficult for fans to evaluate the details of execution, though, so it's easy to blame play calling when the results aren't there.

It's also easy to claim that something was obvious and predictable after it's happened and you already know it failed. Is the same thing said if it's predictable but works? Due to the conditions forcing heavy reliance on the run game, the play calling against KSU was probably the most predictable of the season. But it worked, so how does that count?

However, I'd also guess that the early-season play calling also wasn't as predictable as you think it was. You might be surprised to learn that, against Ohio, Iowa State equally ran and passed the ball on first downs in the first half and had more first down passes than runs in the game overall (and that's even counting scrambles as runs). It's also commonly said that Campbell runs the ball after every single big play. Not that day. There were 2 plays over 20 yards and both were followed with passes (one in each half, neither were on the last drive of the half). I'd bet that if we could erase everyone's memory of the season and they had to go back and predict each play from the Ohio game, they would do far worse than you might assume.

This'll be my last comment here and I apologize to everyone reading these posts rather than getting to celebrate the win.

 

[Cy Guy69]

In reality, the Ohio loss doesn’t change our season. We’re looking at the same tied for 4th place in conference and the same bowl game, in all probability.

I think having the ability to win 9 games is huge. Regardless going for 8 wins after 6 big 12 wins is a solid season.

 

[HFCS]

I'd argue that you're the one being obtuse considering you pretty much ignored everything I said.

I did say that the play calling improved. They did adapt and they also adapted as players have developed this season. But I also believe that every game depends a lot more on execution than play calling. It's a lot more difficult for fans to evaluate the details of execution, though, so it's easy to blame play calling when the results aren't there.

It's also easy to claim that something was obvious and predictable after it's happened and you already know it failed. Is the same thing said if it's predictable but works? Due to the conditions forcing heavy reliance on the run game, the play calling against KSU was probably the most predictable of the season. But it worked, so how does that count?

However, I'd also guess that the early-season play calling also wasn't as predictable as you think it was. You might be surprised to learn that, against Ohio, Iowa State equally ran and passed the ball on first downs in the first half and had more first down passes than runs in the game overall (and that's even counting scrambles as runs). It's also commonly said that Campbell runs the ball after every single big play. Not that day. There were 2 plays over 20 yards and both were followed with passes (one in each half, neither were on the last drive of the half). I'd bet that if we could erase everyone's memory of the season and they had to go back and predict each play from the Ohio game, they would do far worse than you might assume.

This'll be my last comment here and I apologize to everyone reading these posts rather than getting to celebrate the win.

I think we mostly agree and you got hung up on some numbers that I posted that were accurate for Ohio and not perfectly accurate for Iowa. My general points are not some wild bizarre idea, they're exactly what everybody who covers ISU for a living was saying in the immediate aftermath of the games. I just don't get why some want to craft this alternate reality where we didn't mix up the offensive attack a little and made things less predictable, it's what I pretty clearly saw with my eyes. I liked it. It makes me happy. How is that being negative again? I saw it change the season and in some ways it ended up being one of ISU's best seasons, certainly when you look at where our SOS ranks in some of these calculations.

 

[HFCS]

I think having the ability to win 9 games is huge. Regardless going for 8 wins after 6 big 12 wins is a solid season.

Looking at raw win totals is a tough thing for an ISU fan even in these past 6-7 where we've been pretty competitive...

1. Our best season with elite skill players had non conf games cancelled and we slipped up the one we did get...that 9 win season could easily/likely have been 10, 11 or even 12 if we win a close CCG.

2. I posted in this and other threads that our SOS has been ridiculously high in the era of 9 B12 team round robin + Iowa. Lots of teams have "down" cycle years on the schedule to rack up wins while ISU's "down" year is like the #20 schedule instead of the #7 like we sit at right now. My opinion is it's going to be great for ISU to have a typical #35 schedule instead of typical #10. It's not like we get some award or victory for schedule strength. The whole league never even got media recognition for it, not even when we were the only league playing 9 games. Looking quick on Sagarin at end of regular season, 8 major conference teams ranked below us have 8-10 wins...we're probably roughly equal in quality to most of those teams and probably just flat out better than some.

3. We seem to have some early season issues beyond just Iowa...and I suspect the way we want to play just plays into their hands specifically on top of why we struggle in 1-2 non conf games outside of Iowa. Like you just said the non-conf is where you can really rack up a win total. I know we'd all take the top half Big 12 finishes over non-conf wins, but it's not some mutually exclusive thing.

 

[Cyclonepride]

My favorite play was the KState defender trying to push down Sama and instead gave him a turbo boost.

I'd love to see Brenden Clinton do a segment on that game. I'm sure he'd have something to say about that "tackle"

 

[BWRhasnoAC]

Will you at least admit that the RBs averaging 2.8 yards per carry against Iowa is massively different than the 0.5 yards per carry that you originally claimed? If you do that on first and second down to make it a 3rd and 4, it doesn't exactly seem like an automatic turnover to me.


If you liked the Texas play calling, then I feel obligated to point out that against Texas, RB carries accounted for a higher percentage of overall offensive plays than against Ohio (30% vs. 28% against Ohio).

Play calling definitely did improve and the run game got more creative after the non-conference and OSU game. But I think fans have a tendency to ignore simple play calls when they work but also blame them when they don't. If Noel had gotten pushed out of bounds after a 10 yard gain on the third and 16 play that scored a TD, would it be a great play call or would it be a massive mistake throwing it so short of the line to gain?

Just because it worked once doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

Looking at raw win totals is a tough thing for an ISU fan even in these past 6-7 where we've been pretty competitive...

1. Our best season with elite skill players had non conf games cancelled and we slipped up the one we did get...that 9 win season could easily/likely have been 10, 11 or even 12 if we win a close CCG.

2. I posted in this and other threads that our SOS has been ridiculously high in the era of 9 B12 team round robin + Iowa. Lots of teams have "down" cycle years on the schedule to rack up wins while ISU's "down" year is like the #20 schedule instead of the #7 like we sit at right now. My opinion is it's going to be great for ISU to have a typical #35 schedule instead of typical #10. It's not like we get some award or victory for schedule strength. The whole league never even got media recognition for it, not even when we were the only league playing 9 games. Looking quick on Sagarin at end of regular season, 8 major conference teams ranked below us have 8-10 wins...we're probably roughly equal in quality to most of those teams and probably just flat out better than some.

3. We seem to have some early season issues beyond just Iowa...and I suspect the way we want to play just plays into their hands specifically on top of why we struggle in 1-2 non conf games outside of Iowa. Like you just said the non-conf is where you can really rack up a win total. I know we'd all take the top half Big 12 finishes over non-conf wins, but it's not some mutually exclusive thing.

ISU struggles with EIU for one simple reason, the gameplan for winning the game, running the ball, plays right into the hands of what the EIU defense is made to stop, which is the run. On first down their linebackers like to crowd the line of scrimmage, and playing zone, allows their DB's to come charging up when they see it's a running play. The way to beat them is to pass the ball early and often, unless you are like Michigan or Penn State and then pound them with your line, which ISU cannot do at this time.

 

[madguy30]

ISU struggles with EIU for one simple reason, the gameplan for winning the game, running the ball, plays right into the hands of what the EIU defense is made to stop, which is the run. On first down their linebackers like to crowd the line of scrimmage, and playing zone, allows their DB's to come charging up when they see it's a running play. The way to beat them is to pass the ball early and often, unless you are like Michigan or Penn State and then pound them with your line, which ISU cannot do at this time.

Go look at the play by play of the Iowa game. ISU threw early and often.

24 times in the first half, 20 in the 2nd.

 

[BCClone]

ISU struggles with EIU for one simple reason, the gameplan for winning the game, running the ball, plays right into the hands of what the EIU defense is made to stop, which is the run. On first down their linebackers like to crowd the line of scrimmage, and playing zone, allows their DB's to come charging up when they see it's a running play. The way to beat them is to pass the ball early and often, unless you are like Michigan or Penn State and then pound them with your line, which ISU cannot do at this time.

The biggest issue, IMO was the offensive line was offensive; but still, we needed to have a couple deep balls (overthrow everyone for all I care, or out of bounds) to loosen up the safeties and get the box from being loaded so much. Maybe even some outside screens to slow down the defensive line and give you time for deep throws. We were not pulling any lineman like we started to after the Ohio game to give extra support. We were blocking to a specific hole, not even man blocking where the lineman was allowed to just blast the Dlineman to the direction they were going and let the back read the block.

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

Go look at the play by play of the Iowa game. ISU threw early and often.

24 times in the first half, 20 in the 2nd.

How many of those passes were down the field, forcing back the DB's. Most were the short 5 yard out patterns, one that was late and taken back for a pick six. This Oline has done a good job protecting the QB on pass attempts, not so much week to week on the run.

We have to throw the ball down the field, just that threat of the long pass backs off the defense.

 

[bozclone]

ISU struggles with EIU for one simple reason, the gameplan for winning the game, running the ball, plays right into the hands of what the EIU defense is made to stop, which is the run. On first down their linebackers like to crowd the line of scrimmage, and playing zone, allows their DB's to come charging up when they see it's a running play. The way to beat them is to pass the ball early and often, unless you are like Michigan or Penn State and then pound them with your line, which ISU cannot do at this time.

How do you know that the way to beat Iowa is pass the ball early and often? Do you have examples where teams with similar talent levels have been successful recently?

 

[madguy30]

How many of those passes were down the field, forcing back the DB's. Most were the short 5 yard out patterns, one that was late and taken back for a pick six. This Oline has done a good job protecting the QB on pass attempts, not so much week to week on the run.

We have to throw the ball down the field, just that threat of the long pass backs off the defense.

The one dropped in the end zone was down field.

Have Noel's long TDs been down field/vertical?

 

[nrg4isu]

ISU struggles with EIU for one simple reason, the gameplan for winning the game, running the ball, plays right into the hands of what the EIU defense is made to stop, which is the run. On first down their linebackers like to crowd the line of scrimmage, and playing zone, allows their DB's to come charging up when they see it's a running play. The way to beat them is to pass the ball early and often, unless you are like Michigan or Penn State and then pound them with your line, which ISU cannot do at this time.

This is pretty much it. They have good corners too, so going deep isn't easy. They're a legit good defense (as much as I hate Mr. crotch grabber Phil Parker).

1st play next year should be a flea flicker.

 

[SCNCY]

I was curious this morning, so I did some quick match. If you remove our big plays, the 5 plays that went for a TD over 60 yards, our offense only moved the ball 119 yards. We had the ball 13 total times on offense, so remove those 5 plays from the total and that means on our 8 other drives, we only moved the ball 119 yards, or averaged 14-15 yards per drive. So while KSU was able to move the ball very well and consistently in the weather, we weren't really able to.

 

[cycloneG]

Iowa State’s happy locker room nearly drowns out coach press conference

Iowa State’s happy locker room nearly drowns out coach press conference

www.desmoinesregister.com

 

[3TrueFans]

ISU struggles with EIU for one simple reason, the gameplan for winning the game, running the ball, plays right into the hands of what the EIU defense is made to stop, which is the run. On first down their linebackers like to crowd the line of scrimmage, and playing zone, allows their DB's to come charging up when they see it's a running play. The way to beat them is to pass the ball early and often, unless you are like Michigan or Penn State and then pound them with your line, which ISU cannot do at this time.

Sounds easy except that Iowa is also a top 10 defense against the pass.

 

[CyGuy5]

ISU struggles with EIU for one simple reason, the gameplan for winning the game, running the ball, plays right into the hands of what the EIU defense is made to stop, which is the run. On first down their linebackers like to crowd the line of scrimmage, and playing zone, allows their DB's to come charging up when they see it's a running play. The way to beat them is to pass the ball early and often, unless you are like Michigan or Penn State and then pound them with your line, which ISU cannot do at this time.

To add onto that, not just pass the ball, but vertically. 3 yard out routes, throwing the ball all the way across the field against that defense is just stupid.

 

[jsb]

I was curious this morning, so I did some quick match. If you remove our big plays, the 5 plays that went for a TD over 60 yards, our offense only moved the ball 119 yards. We had the ball 13 total times on offense, so remove those 5 plays from the total and that means on our 8 other drives, we only moved the ball 119 yards, or averaged 14-15 yards per drive. So while KSU was able to move the ball very well and consistently in the weather, we weren't really able to.

But you can’t take out the big plays. Who can say whether we would have moved the ball better if we didn’t have 6 TDs go quickly?

Kansas State isn’t saying their defense was good except for the big plays. So we shouldn’t say our offense sucked either.