****Official Class of 2020 Recruiting Thread****

[LLCoolCY]

Not that it matters in our league, but of the new guys coming in, who are the best defenders?

I think most think Dubar and Blackwell would be the best defenders. It is hard to really expect any of them to be huge impact on that end right away.
More importantly all 4 are quick/athletic with plus size and arm length for their expected positions. The staff prioritized B12 athletes for this class and they have potential to be very good as they mature into thier roles.

 

[heitclone]

That team was #3 in the conference in ORTG.

It was also #5 in the conference in DRTG.

(...which brings me back to my point that I doubt a team that was not in the top two in either metric in the B12 was somehow going to win a national championship, or even make it to the Final Four, but that is another conversation...)

They were solid on both ends of the floor, though.

Last year...?

#3 in ORTG before Tyrese and Rasir went down (good!)
#10 in DRTG with miles of daylight between us an #9

You do not need to have elite outside shooting to have a good offense if you are good at other things, such as not turning the ball over, shooting a solid % from 2PT, or drawing a lot of free throws and making them when you take them.

But you do need to not be fugly on defense to be competitive.

The offense last year was just fine overall but it's biggest weakness, not having a guy who could create his own shot and a get a bucket when you needed it to stop runs, was really magnified by how bad we were on defense and on the defensive glass.

In the past, we had always had a guy who could get a bucket when you needed one (Royce, Tyrus, Clyburn, Georges, Monte, Shayok, LW) , so even if we were bad defensively, there was a way to stop the bleeding and allow the defense to set up which can be really important if you struggle on that end, both for getting stops and getting rebounds. That essentially was the defensive strategy in the Hoiball era.

 

[WhoISthis]

Cool

Neat

 

[WhoISthis]

That team was #3 in the conference in ORTG.

It was also #5 in the conference in DRTG.

(...which brings me back to my point that I doubt a team that was not in the top two in either metric in the B12 was somehow going to win a national championship, or even make it to the Final Four, but that is another conversation...)

They were solid on both ends of the floor, though.

Last year...?

#3 in ORTG before Tyrese and Rasir went down (good!)
#10 in DRTG with miles of daylight between us an #9

You do not need to have elite outside shooting to have a good offense if you are good at other things, such as not turning the ball over, shooting a solid % from 2PT, or drawing a lot of free throws and making them when you take them.

But you do need to not be fugly on defense to be competitive.

It’s hard for anything else to be a fault point when our defense is that poor. JJ and the freshmen are instant fixes there, plus more on-ball defense in Tre and Harris.
But if we land Brown, can we find a lineup in which we just switch everything? A lot of these good defensive coaches recruit it, and I think Prohm has this past year!

As for our offense, it there were signs it was going to drop even prior to Haliburton. I was actually encouraged with tye improvement once the shock wore off. A big factor was Tre and Young stepping up. Good for next year.

 

[Sigmapolis]

It’s hard for anything else to be a fault point when our defense is that poor. JJ and the freshmen are instant fixes there, plus more on-ball defense in Tre and Harris.
But if we land Brown, can we find a lineup in which we just switch everything? A lot of these good defensive coaches recruit it, and I think Prohm has this past year!

As for our offense, it there were signs it was going to drop even prior to Haliburton. I was actually encouraged with tye improvement once the shock wore off. A big factor was Tre and Young stepping up. Good for next year.

Adjusted ORTG on Bart Torvik by game last year --



Pretty steady throughout the year. I put a yellow highlight on the Kansas State game where Haliburton went down. Losing him did not really seem to have an appreciable effect on the efficiency of the offense, oddly enough, looking at the numbers.

Same thing for the defense --



Now remember, defense is like golf -- you want low scores. I also put a highlight on the Kansas State game that ended up being Haliburton's last.

I think there is a more appreciable (and negative) effect on defense from losing Tyrese. We mostly appreciate him as a PG and playmaker, but the reason the NBA likes him so much is he combines that with ideal size for an NBA guard/wing. He has good instincts for the ball, too, so you can easily imagine him guarding 1-3 at the next level (after guarding 1-4 in college), switching on most screens without creating a mismatch, and gambling more successfully than not for tips and steals for turnovers.

Haliburton's wingspan is almost comical with how "wide" he is. He is going to be one of the widest PGs in the NBA the first day he steps foot on the court. We actually missed that defensive asset more than him as an offensive one.

People on here have asked a few times what is the identity that Prohm wants to build to, and I really think we know the answer to that. He wants a 4/1 system with four playmaking guards/wings on the perimeter who can switch everything on defense without creating mismatches and a traditional big man as the "1" who has plenty of space to operate on the boards and on the block offensively. The two times he had that roster, we had good teams, ones that won the B12 tournament and a lot of big games.

You definitely saw that with this roster --

Guards: Morris, Mitrou-Long, Thomas, Burton, Jackson, Weiler-Babb, Bowie
Big Man: Young

And you saw it again with the other good Prohm team --

Guards: Weiler-Babb, Haliburton, Wigginton, Shayok, Horton-Tucker
Big Men: Jacobson, Lard

I think he wants to get back to that. The recruiting class we have coming in, with three B12 level athletes who are 6'5" and can guard 1-4, definitely leans towards it. Add in Johnson, and I think he is building for that. Some of the smaller guys above (e.g., Morris, D. Jackson, T. Jackson, Bolton, and now Harris) complicate that, so you are going to have to do some work to try and hide those undersized guys on defense, but the principle remains the same. He wants 1-4 positionless with a big man free to operate inside of it.

 

[WhoISthis]

Adjusted ORTG on Bart Torvik by game last year --

View attachment 71536

Pretty steady throughout the year. I put a yellow highlight on the Kansas State game where Haliburton went down. Losing him did not really seem to have an appreciable effect on the efficiency of the offense, oddly enough, looking at the numbers.

Same thing for the defense --

View attachment 71537

Now remember, defense is like golf -- you want low scores. I also put a highlight on the Kansas State game that ended up being Haliburton's last.

I think there is a more appreciable (and negative) effect on defense from losing Tyrese. We mostly appreciate him as a PG and playmaker, but the reason the NBA likes him so much is he combines that with ideal size for an NBA guard/wing. He has good instincts for the ball, too, so you can easily imagine him guarding 1-3 at the next level (after guarding 1-4 in college), switching on most screens without creating a mismatch, and gambling more successfully than not for tips and steals for turnovers.

Haliburton's wingspan is almost comical with how "wide" he is. He is going to be one of the widest PGs in the NBA the first day he steps foot on the court. We actually missed that defensive asset more than him as an offensive one.

People on here have asked a few times what is the identity that Prohm wants to build to, and I really think we know the answer to that. He wants a 4/1 system with four playmaking guards/wings on the perimeter who can switch everything on defense without creating mismatches and a traditional big man as the "1" who has plenty of space to operate on the boards and on the block offensively. The two times he had that roster, we had good teams, ones that won the B12 tournament and a lot of big games.

You definitely saw that with this roster --

Guards: Morris, Mitrou-Long, Thomas, Burton, Jackson, Weiler-Babb, Bowie
Big Man: Young

And you saw it again with the other good Prohm team --

Guards: Weiler-Babb, Haliburton, Wiggington, Shayok, Horton-Tucker
Big Men: Jacobson, Lard

I think he wants to get back to that. The recruiting class we have coming in, with three B12 level athletes who are 6'5" and can guard 1-4, definitely leans towards it. Add in Johnson, and I think he is building for that. Some of the smaller guys above (e.g., Morris, D. Jackson, T. Jackson, Bolton, and now Harris) complicate that, so you are going to have to do some work to try and hide those undersized guys on defense, but the principle remains the same. He wants 1-4 positionless with a big man free to operate inside of it.

Good stuff because I agree with most of that. Kidding, good input regardless.

Some people get too caught up in losing Haliburton off a 12-20 team. And his draft position. It’s way more complex to just take his talent and put in “less” talent, and say “worse”. That’s if we have any kind of coaching (adjustments made). I think your charts show that. We’d be a much better team next year with him, but next year without him can be much better than last year with him.

Our biggest weakness was defense, and it it wasn’t good enough even with a defender like Haliburton. That’s pointing to systemic/team defense issues. Hopefully, it gets greatly improved with having more guys able to play 3/4.

The 4/1 is what nearly every coach wants right now imo. My biggest grief is if that’s what Prohm wants, it’s egregious GM failure to go into two out of three years without a roster in which you can do it. I’m not sure he has the “want” we think he does, but maybe this year will have convinced him. Instead of adding wings we could play at the 4, we added a stiff in Brase and Beverly, who no P5 staff thought was a Big 12 small 4. We didn’t often use Talley as the 4. We rarely played Lewis as a 4, which frankly would have helped hide his defensive deficiencies. Zion wasn’t ready, but we went all in from the get go on two bigs- that was high risk low ceiling.

 

[clone4life82]

Not that it matters in our league, but of the new guys coming in, who are the best defenders?

I know you’re referring to the incoming freshmen but in the Tyler Harris Memphis vs Wichita state game clip on the other thread, there were a couple of possessions where Tyler was absolutely getting after his guy. He looked to me like a kid that will constantly annoy and piss off the other teams pg

 

[Sigmapolis]

The 4/1 is what nearly every coach wants right now imo. My biggest grief is if that’s what Prohm wants, it’s egregious GM failure to go into two out of three years without a roster in which you can do it. I’m not sure he has the “want” we think he does, but maybe this year will have convinced him. Instead of adding wings we could play at the 4, we added a stiff in Brase and Beverly, who no P5 staff thought was a Big 12 small 4. We didn’t often use Talley as the 4. We rarely played Lewis as a 4, which frankly would have helped hide his defensive deficiencies. Zion wasn’t ready, but we went all in from the get go on two bigs- that was high risk low ceiling.

I am not denying the 4/1 is trendy as heck right now in college basketball, and many NBA teams essentially run something like that themselves, too.

I am not sure the 2018 or 2020 season provide evidence that Prohm did not want to use the 4/1 system. I just think he worked with what he had.

Beverly, Lewis, and Griffin were bad -- look at where they came from/where they went afterwards, and Brase was never healthy. They were obviously inferior players to the alternatives on the roster, even if that meant migrating away from that preferred 4/1 system. We just did not have the guys to really play it effectively.

A side note on the GM thing...

I agree with you that Prohm the GM has a lot of failures, too. But it is really hard for college programs right now. Quoting myself from another thread a few weeks ago...

That is one thing about college athletics that is so different than the pros.

Bad teams have viable paths in, say, the NFL or the NBA to get better -- tank, if you have the patience for it, and flip your useful assets to other teams to gain draft capital and cap space and then go out and use it to make yourself better. It works.

Bad college teams... just have to keep trying to do more of the same. Recruit, try and bring in some transfers, and develop yourself internally, despite these being slow processes. Plus, even if you get good players, you have a very limited clock on how long you can have them. They have four years, maximum, and the really good ones will move on to the professional leagues. Professional teams can build themselves around a stud player at a key position (e.g., PG or QB) for a decade or longer if they play their cards correctly.

College rosters are glaciers (except for with the players you really would like to keep) while pro rosters are sports cars in their maneuverability in comparison.

 

[Drew0311]

I am hoping Harris becomes the guy other teams hate. The Phil Forte of our team. The short guy that the other team should be able to stop but can't. I hate those type of guys on other teams, love them on ours. Jake Sullivan type. Obviously different games than each other but same effect.

 

[LLCoolCY]

Hmm... With 3 scholarships I wonder if the Staff may revisit Hinton once the GT transfer cycle has ended. I'm not sure if the staff wants to add another HS wing tho?

https://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/news/three-point-play-rylan-griffen-ramean-hinton-kai-sotto

"A true junkyard dog who ranks amongst the top-40 wing players in the senior class, he’s an intense competitor who makes things happen on drives to the rim and projects as a potentially big-time defender.

When he first opened things up in March, Hinton heard from Illinois, Iowa State and Tulsa while SEMO tried to get him back in the fold. Of late, Colorado State, Missouri State and Wisconsin-Green Bay have been kicking the tires a bit but nobody has really been going all out. I feel programs from the upper mid-major to even high major level would be wise to do some more checking on Hinton because there’s still time to land a guy who could really be a quality late addition."
https://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/news/three-point-play-rylan-griffen-ramean-hinton-kai-sotto

 

[Messi]

2020 prospect Marcus Watson asked for and received a release from his Letter of Intent to Wake Forest, he tells 247Sports. "I'm going to reopen my recruitment back up," Watson said. "I'm fully open and looking for a school that fits my style of play." Watson, a standout at Chicago (Ill.) Morgan Park, originally committed to Danny Manning on Aug. 20. Watson said he received his release earlier on Sunday. "When Danny Manning got fired it was a decision me and my family had to sit down and think about it," Watson said. A 5-foot-11 point guard, Watson is known for his end to end speed, playmaking ability and his passing. "I'm a guy that that up all 94-feet, and I can score and facilitate the ball," he said. Watson is rated as a three-star prospect in the 2020 recruiting class.


https://247sports.com/Player/Marcus-Watson-46083919/

 

[RustShack]

Bring him in!

 

[Messi]

2020 prospect Marcus Watson asked for and received a release from his Letter of Intent to Wake Forest, he tells 247Sports. "I'm going to reopen my recruitment back up," Watson said. "I'm fully open and looking for a school that fits my style of play." Watson, a standout at Chicago (Ill.) Morgan Park, originally committed to Danny Manning on Aug. 20. Watson said he received his release earlier on Sunday. "When Danny Manning got fired it was a decision me and my family had to sit down and think about it," Watson said. A 5-foot-11 point guard, Watson is known for his end to end speed, playmaking ability and his passing. "I'm a guy that that up all 94-feet, and I can score and facilitate the ball," he said. Watson is rated as a three-star prospect in the 2020 recruiting class.


https://247sports.com/Player/Marcus-Watson-46083919/

 

[ChickenNuggetMan]

2020 prospect Marcus Watson asked for and received a release from his Letter of Intent to Wake Forest, he tells 247Sports. "I'm going to reopen my recruitment back up," Watson said. "I'm fully open and looking for a school that fits my style of play." Watson, a standout at Chicago (Ill.) Morgan Park, originally committed to Danny Manning on Aug. 20. Watson said he received his release earlier on Sunday. "When Danny Manning got fired it was a decision me and my family had to sit down and think about it," Watson said. A 5-foot-11 point guard, Watson is known for his end to end speed, playmaking ability and his passing. "I'm a guy that that up all 94-feet, and I can score and facilitate the ball," he said. Watson is rated as a three-star prospect in the 2020 recruiting class.


https://247sports.com/Player/Marcus-Watson-46083919/

If we ended up with Watson we would be so short

 

[isucy86]

If we ended up with Watson we would be so short

I'll take quality players no matter their height. Not sure how good a 3 point shooter Watson will be at the college level, but Harris and Jackson appear pretty solid

UConn did pretty well with Boatright and Shabazz. It can work, but the coaches might have to go with 2 posts or play zone if a team figures away to take advantage of 2 shorter guards in the lineup.

 

[Rabbuk]

If we ended up with Watson we would be so short

He's no Bowen Born

 

[Hayes30]

If we ended up with Watson we would be so short

No we wouldn't. 3 players would be short the other 10 are taller.

 

[04clone]

No we wouldn't. 3 players would be short the other 10 are taller.

Not to mention, if we did go the direction of Watson, it wouldn't be with the idea that he's a Day 1 starter.

Of 120 minutes per game at the guard spots, Bolton and JCL will probably play an average of 65-70 minutes. Neither of them is particularly undersized for a college guard. Tre will probably play somewhere between 20-30 minutes. Walker (6'4) and Javan (6'6) will probably also get some guard minutes, and Dubar might as well. Tre is small for a B12 guard, but there aren't a whole lot of minutes left for a Watson (or a yet to be identified small guard) to play, particularly in the same lineup with Tre. If Harris' waiver is granted, there's a bit higher probability of two small guards on the floor at the same time, but I tend to think Harris would eat into Tre's minutes also.

Getting a Justin Smith would be huge, as he would allow Javan to play more guard minutes. I think a lineup of Bolton, JCL, Javan, Smith and Solo/Conditt/Foster would actually be one of the bigger starting lineups in the B12. There's not a traditional lead PG in that group, but a lot of size and high level athletes.

 

[Cyforce]

Not to mention, if we did go the direction of Watson, it wouldn't be with the idea that he's a Day 1 starter.

Of 120 minutes per game at the guard spots, Bolton and JCL will probably play an average of 65-70 minutes. Neither of them is particularly undersized for a college guard. Tre will probably play somewhere between 20-30 minutes. Walker (6'4) and Javan (6'6) will probably also get some guard minutes, and Dubar might as well. Tre is small for a B12 guard, but there aren't a whole lot of minutes left for a Watson (or a yet to be identified small guard) to play, particularly in the same lineup with Tre. If Harris' waiver is granted, there's a bit higher probability of two small guards on the floor at the same time, but I tend to think Harris would eat into Tre's minutes also.

Getting a Justin Smith would be huge, as he would allow Javan to play more guard minutes. I think a lineup of Bolton, JCL, Javan, Smith and Solo/Conditt/Foster would actually be one of the bigger starting lineups in the B12. There's not a traditional lead PG in that group, but a lot of size and high level athletes.

Doesn't make a lot of sense. We need a day one PG if Harris doesn't get the waiver. If he doesn't Watson could be buried until he's a senior which wouldn't happen.

 

[Thomasrickj]

I'll take quality players no matter their height. Not sure how good a 3 point shooter Watson will be at the college level, but Harris and Jackson appear pretty solid

UConn did pretty well with Boatright and Shabazz. It can work, but the coaches might have to go with 2 posts or play zone if a team figures away to take advantage of 2 shorter guards in the lineup.

Yep. Don’t forget that Oklahoma and Xavier were good with Drew Lavender running the point. He was only 5’-7”.