This is why Prohm must go........

[AuH2O]

They are playing without their best player Ramsey and still beat #1 Louisville. If we lost Halliburton how would our offense look?

Well he played during a double digit loss to Iowa.

Would ISU struggle without Haliburton? Absolutely. Would ISU need to come back in the second half to squeak by a terrible Southern Miss. team that it beat by 28 with Haliburton going for 12 pts and 9 assists? I guess we'll never know.

The point is bad games happen ALL THE TIME. Royce's team got pounded by Drake and then had to squeak by Miss. Valley State by 2 points. There was nothing to that point that suggested that team was a tournament team.

Beard's TTU team this year has been up and down. Hell, TTU's team and season so far is a lot like ISU this year. Both teams lost a similar % of its firepower from last year. TTU has beaten Louisville, and have been beaten by every other team with a pulse they have played, sometimes in convincing fashion. Everybody else they've played has been absolute garbage, including a squeaker against So. Miss. Basically ISU is similar, but with a less impressive best win (Seton Hall), but with another win vs. a Power conf. team in Alabama

Some skepticism of this team is reasonable, but all the teams ISU has lost to are power conference teams full of veterans filling the same/similar roles they did last year. ISU not only lost a lot, CLEARLY our best player is playing an entirely different role than he did last year. Those things matter, and present a major disadvantage at the start of the year. I have no idea what will happen, but giving up on the team and season is a bit premature.

 

[AuH2O]

Those predictions didn't know how good THT, Shayok, Jacobson and Haliburton would be. Once you could see how talented they were, the conference season was definitely underachieving.

So Bennett is a ******* moron that had no idea how to utilize Shayok. Noted.

 

[FinalFourCy]

So Bennett is a ******* moron that had no idea how to utilize Shayok. Noted.

Things are this bad for Prohm? Just fire him now if this is what you need to resort to.

 

[BoxsterCy]

 

[Halincandenza]

So Bennett is a ******* moron that had no idea how to utilize Shayok. Noted.

ok?

 

[Sigmapolis]

Career ATR for a few notable guys...
---
Morris -- 768/165 = 4.65
Weiler-Babb -- 358/138 = 2.60
Haliburton -- 204/54 = 3.78
Wigginton -- 141/141 = 1.00

One. ONE. ONE!!! Tyrese has more career assists than him by a wide margin after 1.25 seasons. Wigginton almost had as many turnovers as Morris did in four years playing 38+ minutes per night in only two seasons!

Which one(s) should have been running PG again?

Wigginton definitely had a few sets where he initiated the offense, but when you clearly do not have true PG skills, his best role was as a SG/shooter, not a primary ball-handler the team was at its best last year with Nick running the show.

There are things to criticize about Prohm as a coach, but the "he was unfair to Wigginton and should have played him more/played him at PG" one is just bizarre to me. The case is so overwhelming against it that I conclude that you all are either (1.) stupid and know nothing about basketball or (2.) you're grasping for whatever straw you can find, and this just seems like an obvious one yet it falls apart under scrutiny.

Learn to read before responding. "I have no problems that he was coming off the bench." That is my exact quote. I also said I had no problems with the minutes he was getting.

Are you happy with how last season went? Did the season go as you had hoped/expected? Because I know that I was disappointed. Anybody who knows basketball will tell you that we under performed last season and never really looked like a complete team. Who does the responsibility fall on? The coaches. Plain and simple, they weren't able to figure things out.

Wigginton was a special talent, especially at the college level, who looked average for more games than not last season. That is a problem. If you wanna sit back and praise an underwhelming season while one of the B12's best players looked marginal at best, you go right ahead. But I could never.

We met and exceeded preseason expectations.

I just never drank the cyanide-laced Flavor Aid that we were going to destroy the Big 12 in the regular season and make a deep run into the tournament at the end of January. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop and, well, it did. That team had flaws, ones exposed on cold shooting nights, and was good/better on defense but still not great.

We are Iowa State fans. Expect to be punched in the junk.

Look, I know the mentality that you are coming from. This program is DESPERATE for a winner. We are yearning to finish what was taken from us in Auburn Hills, Michigan nearly twenty years ago and when Georges broke his foot. We have it mentally that we are good enough to accomplish incredible things and they keep getting taken away from us due to unfair outside circumstances. I can debate if we really would have won national titles those years (the first one? maybe, possibly, but the second one? probably not).

So when we see flashes of that, we go CRAZY and... go off a little too early. The goalposts last year went from "return to the NCAA tournament" to "best season in school history." That is not fair to Prohm and our guys. We cut down the nets in KC. It was a frustrating season, but that is a heck of a legacy. So yes, I was generally happy with it.

Your expectations at the middle of last season were not/are not reasonable.

Those predictions didn't know how good THT, Shayok, Jacobson and Haliburton would be. Once you could see how talented they were, the conference season was definitely underachieving.

They did not know that Wigginton would be hurt much of the season, that Lard would regress on top of being his usual basket case, that Solomon would be out, and none of the other freshmen would be quite ready. I would argue against you on THT, too -- he was great in moments but borderline unplayable in others. He could go out there and make every hunk of junk he put up some nights, but others, he would shoot you out of games.

People knew Shayok would be good, but maybe not that good. Him and Haliburton were the only real positive surprises -- nobody saw TH coming, but man he is good.

 

[Cyched]

 

[Cyched]

 

[CYEATHAWK]

They did not know that Wigginton would be hurt much of the season, that Lard would regress on top of being his usual basket case, that Solomon would be out, and none of the other freshmen would be quite ready. I would argue against you on THT, too -- he was great in moments but borderline unplayable in others. He could go out there and make every hunk of junk he put up some nights, but others, he would shoot you out of games.

People knew Shayok would be good, but maybe not that good. Him and Haliburton were the only real positive surprises .

And yet........................

 

[Statefan10]

I know the offense is limited but I see a lot of games starting out 16-4ish but the team that's down doesn't let that decide the game

Well it technically didn't decide the game, but it set a precedent for how the game was going to go. We went on a little run, cut it to 7 and then gave up two threes and an and-1 on our next three defensive trips, not to mention took terrible shots for our offense during that stretch. Our defense was the main issue in the Iowa game, and because of that our offense failed to succeed. This team is going to go as far as our defense lets us IMO.

 

[Snyder21]

We met and exceeded preseason expectations.

I just never drank the cyanide-laced Flavor Aid that we were going to destroy the Big 12 in the regular season and make a deep run into the tournament at the end of January. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop and, well, it did. That team had flaws, ones exposed on cold shooting nights, and was good/better on defense but still not great.

We are Iowa State fans. Expect to be punched in the junk.

Look, I know the mentality that you are coming from. This program is DESPERATE for a winner. We are yearning to finish what was taken from us in Auburn Hills, Michigan nearly twenty years ago and when Georges broke his foot. We have it mentally that we are good enough to accomplish incredible things and they keep getting taken away from us due to unfair, outside circumstances. I can debate if we really would have won national titles those years (the first one? maybe, possibly, but the second one? probably not).

So when we see flashes of that, we go CRAZY and... go off a little too early. The goalposts last year went from "return to the NCAA tournament" to "best season in school history." That is not fair to Prohm and our guys. We cut down the nets in KC. It was a frustrating season, but that is a heck of a legacy. So yes, I was generally happy with it.

Your expectations at the middle of last season were not/are not reasonable.



They did not know that Wigginton would be hurt much of the season, that Lard would regress on top of being his usual basket case, that Solomon would be out, and none of the other freshmen would be quite ready. I would argue against you on THT, too -- he was great in moments but borderline unplayable in others. He could go out there and make every hunk of junk he put up some nights, but others, he would shoot you out of games.

People knew Shayok would be good, but maybe not that good. Him and Haliburton were the only real positive surprises -- nobody saw TH coming, but man he is good.

Preseason rankings mean nothing to me, especially in college basketball when there is so much change from year to year.

Expectations are subjective and I think I have every right to believe we under performed when you look at the talent on the roster. Thankfully we were given a good draw in the B12 tourney and were able to salvage the season with the B12 championship.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Preseason rankings mean nothing to me, especially in college basketball when there is so much change from year to year.

Expectations are subjective and I think I have every right to believe we under performed when you look at the talent on the roster. Thankfully we were given a good draw in the B12 tourney and were able to salvage the season with the B12 championship.

If "salvaging" a season is winning the KC tournament, then you have some utterly lofty (and frankly unprecedented) expectations for the program.

That roster had a lot of talent, yes, but much of it was young and unproven (e.g., THT and Haliburton, who could go onto great things but were still 18 year old freshman starting in the Big 12 at the time) or had not played together for long.

The 2014-2015 "BDJ" experience had both more roster continuity and talent...

Morris -- NBA
Mitrou-Long -- NBA
Hogue -- good overseas player
Niang -- NBA
McKay -- good overseas player
---
Thomas -- NBA
Dejean-Jones -- NBA
Nader -- NBA

...than last year, yet it did not really accomplish anything more. And they brought back 3/5 starters and 5/7 of their rotation players, losing only Kane and Ejim, and added marvelous and future NBA talent in Nader, BDJ, and McKay off the redshirt.

They both went out in the first round of the NCAA tournament (though losing to Ohio State is far less shameful than losing to UAB) and won the Big 12 tournament. They both squandered good positions to win the Big 12 regular season, but neither was ever a shoe-in.

**** happens with college basketball. You are so concerned about the highest highs that we "should" reach (yet never have) and seem to think even this level of success is a given. Well, guess what, it is not. The Wookie took my undergraduate years from me.

 

[rochclone]

He sure didn't lose on his home court to the crappy Iowa State team we had last year.

I'm sure it bothered him a lot when he clinched the Big 12 regular season title at Hilton Coliseum and then finished as the National runner-up. Are we really going to argue that Prohm has accomplished more at Iowa State than Chris Beard at Texas Tech? Nobody is doubting that CSP has had terrific wins at Iowa State. Road wins at Texas Tech, Ole Miss and Kansas State last year. Big 12 Tournament championship last year and 2017.

I will catch some heat for this but I would grade him in the following manner.

2015-16 (B-) Pre-season Top 10 squad, injury to Naz and McKay drama. Niang was the best player in the country the last 8 games of his career. 10-8 conference record and T5th in the conference. Sweet 16 appearance saved it from a C but overall wanted to see more and "meh" of that year did effect the initial recruiting cycle.

2016-17 (A)-His best coaching job by far. 12-6 in the regular season with that group was remarkable. For the month of February & March we played like a Top 15 squad consistently. Big 12 conference tournament title.

2017-18 (D)--Unmitigated disaster. Donovan Jackson experiment at point guard, loss against UW-Milwaukee at home, 4-14 in the conference season, 23 point home loss to Tennessee. Most double-digit losses in a year since 2002. They weren't close and unfortunately a lot of bad habits were allowed to develop in two our freshmen that year.

2018-19 (B-)--He gets credit for bringing in one of the best recruiting classes. LW injury early, success in Maui, great road wins in conference, February swoon and a squad that finishes 9-9 and appears to have the talent for 12-6 or 13-5. Regardless a solid run in the Big 12 tournament resulting in another trophy. Not a terribly unforeseen loss to Ohio State based upon the lack of consistency.


I actually think he did a better coaching job last year then in 2015-16 which I'm sure will draw the ire of a few on this board. I think a good case study to look at for the challenges that existed in 2015-16 is looking at Cincinnati this year. Cronin was a stud at UC and then takes the job at UCLA. UC hires the coach of Northern Kentucky. It is clear that the players at UC have yet to fully embrace the new coach because he has yet to "prove it" at a major level.

 

[rochclone]

Why does starting/not make such a difference? Minutes are more important. Your five most important players are not always your five starters.

Career ATR for a few notable guys...
---
Morris -- 768/165 = 4.65
Weiler-Babb -- 358/138 = 2.60
Haliburton -- 204/54 = 3.78
Wigginton -- 141/141 = 1.00

One. ONE. ONE!!! Tyrese has more career assists than him by a wide margin after 1.25 seasons. Wigginton almost had as many turnovers as Morris did in four years playing 38+ minutes per night in only two seasons!

Which one(s) should have been running PG again?

Wigginton definitely had a few sets where he initiated the offense, but when you clearly do not have true PG skills, his best role was as a SG/shooter, not a primary ball-handler the team was at its best last year with Nick running the show.

There are things to criticize about Prohm as a coach, but the "he was unfair to Wigginton and should have played him more/played him at PG" one is just bizarre to me. The case is so overwhelming against it that I conclude that you all are either (1.) stupid and know nothing about basketball or (2.) you're grasping for whatever straw you can find, and this just seems like an obvious one yet it falls apart under scrutiny.

Wiggington wasn't a pg at Oak Hill and he wasn't a good enough decision maker to be a point guard in college. He had terrific athleticism which made it all the more befuddling how very average players in the Big 12 would consistently take him off the dribble like I was guarding them. He probably was allowed to build some bad habits as a result of the 17-18 debacle and it seemed as if CSP could never quite figure out how to stroke the ego of the five star and yet still use LW in the best way for the team. I have zero issues with how CSP used him last year. My bigger issue is why he believed he could be a high level pg to begin with.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Wiggington wasn't a pg at Oak Hill and he wasn't a good enough decision maker to be a point guard in college. He had terrific athleticism which made it all the more befuddling how very average players in the Big 12 would consistently take him off the dribble like I was guarding them. He probably was allowed to build some bad habits as a result of the 17-18 debacle and it seemed as if CSP could never quite figure out how to stroke the ego of the five star and yet still use LW in the best way for the team. I have zero issues with how CSP used him last year. My bigger issue is why he believed he could be a high level pg to begin with.

People will believe all sorts of things if they have a professional reason to do so.

LW had to believe he was a PG because he had no professional future (at least in the NBA) as a SG or wing. He was too small. Quick enough? Yes, but not tall or long enough, so he had to fashion himself as a scoring/shooting PG.

He had the scoring and the shooting but never the handle and court vision.

Prohm did what was best for the team in letting NWB and TH drive the offense, but I am sure LW saw his professional goals circling the drain as he stood in the corner, even if he was draining threes and making some good drives to the basket.

The defense thing is just mental/effort. Period. I would not call Chris Babb a supreme athlete at all, but he worked on defense and wanted to be a pest.

Wigginton just wanted a highlight reel for NBA scouts.

 

[rochclone]

Well he played during a double digit loss to Iowa.

Would ISU struggle without Haliburton? Absolutely. Would ISU need to come back in the second half to squeak by a terrible Southern Miss. team that it beat by 28 with Haliburton going for 12 pts and 9 assists? I guess we'll never know.

The point is bad games happen ALL THE TIME. Royce's team got pounded by Drake and then had to squeak by Miss. Valley State by 2 points. There was nothing to that point that suggested that team was a tournament team.

Beard's TTU team this year has been up and down. Hell, TTU's team and season so far is a lot like ISU this year. Both teams lost a similar % of its firepower from last year. TTU has beaten Louisville, and have been beaten by every other team with a pulse they have played, sometimes in convincing fashion. Everybody else they've played has been absolute garbage, including a squeaker against So. Miss. Basically ISU is similar, but with a less impressive best win (Seton Hall), but with another win vs. a Power conf. team in Alabama

Some skepticism of this team is reasonable, but all the teams ISU has lost to are power conference teams full of veterans filling the same/similar roles they did last year. ISU not only lost a lot, CLEARLY our best player is playing an entirely different role than he did last year. Those things matter, and present a major disadvantage at the start of the year. I have no idea what will happen, but giving up on the team and season is a bit premature.

He got hurt in the Iowa game. Alabama is a bottom level SEC squad and comparing Seton Hall without their big to Louisville....you lose me there. Iowa State has yet to have a bad loss which will serve them well. But at the end of the day you have to get to 18-13 to be on the cusp which means they need 10 conference wins. We have the talent to get it done, hopefully they can make the NCAA tournament.

 

[Sigmapolis]

He got hurt in the Iowa game. Alabama is a bottom level SEC squad and comparing Seton Hall without their big to Louisville....you lose me there. Iowa State has yet to have a bad loss which will serve them well. But at the end of the day you have to get to 18-13 to be on the cusp which means they need 10 conference wins. We have the talent to get it done, hopefully they can make the NCAA tournament.

We do have that game at Auburn.

That would be a huge win -- the only bigger ones would be something like winning in Lawrence or maybe Waco, Morgantown, or Lubbock.

Not predicting it, but the non-con does give us one more chance for a statement.

 

[Statefan10]

I'm sure it bothered him a lot when he clinched the Big 12 regular season title at Hilton Coliseum and then finished as the National runner-up. Are we really going to argue that Prohm has accomplished more at Iowa State than Chris Beard at Texas Tech? Nobody is doubting that CSP has had terrific wins at Iowa State. Road wins at Texas Tech, Ole Miss and Kansas State last year. Big 12 Tournament championship last year and 2017.

I will catch some heat for this but I would grade him in the following manner.

2015-16 (B-) Pre-season Top 10 squad, injury to Naz and McKay drama. Niang was the best player in the country the last 8 games of his career. 10-8 conference record and T5th in the conference. Sweet 16 appearance saved it from a C but overall wanted to see more and "meh" of that year did effect the initial recruiting cycle.

2016-17 (A)-His best coaching job by far. 12-6 in the regular season with that group was remarkable. For the month of February & March we played like a Top 15 squad consistently. Big 12 conference tournament title.

2017-18 (D)--Unmitigated disaster. Donovan Jackson experiment at point guard, loss against UW-Milwaukee at home, 4-14 in the conference season, 23 point home loss to Tennessee. Most double-digit losses in a year since 2002. They weren't close and unfortunately a lot of bad habits were allowed to develop in two our freshmen that year.

2018-19 (B-)--He gets credit for bringing in one of the best recruiting classes. LW injury early, success in Maui, great road wins in conference, February swoon and a squad that finishes 9-9 and appears to have the talent for 12-6 or 13-5. Regardless a solid run in the Big 12 tournament resulting in another trophy. Not a terribly unforeseen loss to Ohio State based upon the lack of consistency.


I actually think he did a better coaching job last year then in 2015-16 which I'm sure will draw the ire of a few on this board. I think a good case study to look at for the challenges that existed in 2015-16 is looking at Cincinnati this year. Cronin was a stud at UC and then takes the job at UCLA. UC hires the coach of Northern Kentucky. It is clear that the players at UC have yet to fully embrace the new coach because he has yet to "prove it" at a major level.

I mean I'm not going to argue your grades but there are other things that happened in those years. In the 2015-2016 season we did not have any sort of bench besides Deonte Burton who hadn't developed even into a sliver of what he was the following season. We had to play with basically 6 guys all year long and that killed us during the conference stretch. Not having a healthy Naz that year was a killer, but ultimately helped the team reach it's potential the next year in 2016-2017, which I agree was a great year. (we got crushed by Iowa that year too btw).

In 2017-2018, we lost basically the entire basketball team besides three guys, and we were holding out two scholarships for Shayok and Jacobson. It was the definition of a rebuilding year and even though we sucked, guys like Babb and Solomon got injured and that might've helped pick up a couple more wins and go at least above .500.

Last year we literally had a bunch of new guys playing their first season together. Solomon Young didn't play at all, Zoran Talley and Lard were catastrophes and were incapable of staying out of the dog house, and we had guys that decided they were done with college about half way through the year. Guys stopped playing for one another and started playing for themselves. The only players that consistently played the year prior and weren't head cases were Lindell and Babb, and Lindell was out for the first 3rd of the season!

This year we have two players that significantly played with one another last year; Tyrese and Mike. Solomon was out and George barely saw the floor. So we're trying to rebuild another foundation and because of that, there are going to be games where things don't go particularly well. Hopefully this team will continue to gel and develop a continuity with one another and maybe can make a run at the tournament. We'll see.

 

[rochclone]

We do have that game at Auburn.

That would be a huge win -- the only bigger ones would be something like winning in Lawrence or maybe Waco, Morgantown, or Lubbock.

Not predicting it, but the non-con does give us one more chance for a statement.

We certainly will have opportunities. But this team can’t go worse than 6-3 at home in conference.

 

[rochclone]

I mean I'm not going to argue your grades but there are other things that happened in those years. In the 2015-2016 season we did not have any sort of bench besides Deonte Burton who hadn't developed even into a sliver of what he was the following season. We had to play with basically 6 guys all year long and that killed us during the conference stretch. Not having a healthy Naz that year was a killer, but ultimately helped the team reach it's potential the next year in 2016-2017, which I agree was a great year. (we got crushed by Iowa that year too btw).

In 2017-2018, we lost basically the entire basketball team besides three guys, and we were holding out two scholarships for Shayok and Jacobson. It was the definition of a rebuilding year and even though we sucked, guys like Babb and Solomon got injured and that might've helped pick up a couple more wins and go at least above .500.

Last year we literally had a bunch of new guys playing their first season together. Solomon Young didn't play at all, Zoran Talley and Lard were catastrophes and were incapable of staying out of the dog house, and we had guys that decided they were done with college about half way through the year. Guys stopped playing for one another and started playing for themselves. The only players that consistently played the year prior and weren't head cases were Lindell and Babb, and Lindell was out for the first 3rd of the season!

This year we have two players that significantly played with one another last year; Tyrese and Mike. Solomon was out and George barely saw the floor. So we're trying to rebuild another foundation and because of that, there are going to be games where things don't go particularly well. Hopefully this team will continue to gel and develop a continuity with one another and maybe can make a run at the tournament. We'll see.

17-18 was the most non-competitive year at Iowa State since Sullivan’s soph year. We weren’t a game or two away. That’s the narrative that keeps getting pushed by the numbers are very clear.

Of the 18 losses 11 of them were by double digits. 9 of them were by 15 points or more. We had two nice Top 25 upsets of Texas Tech and West Virginia. When the average loss in Big 12 play is 12.5 points per game I don’t think we are on the cusp of postseason.