INSIDER: What I'm hearing on the scrimmage vs. Wisconsin

[Cat Stevens]

Your mission to downplay and dismiss every accomplishment under CFH is what is embarrassing. You are acting like a jilted gf. Please move past it. Some of us discuss numbers and facts and can have a decent conversation and debate. You add nothing other than insults and accusations. Very Trump of you.

so you made it up.

I knew that already. But you throwing stuff like that out there is trying to project a ridiculous argument.

It isn’t like it’s not obvious. Fred was here for 5 years, he left 5 years ago. All of the fanboys have tried to create arguments to remove the onus from him choosing to leave. Fred will always be a large part of Iowa State history. A top 7 player in school history, certainly deserving of his jersey hung in the rafters. And he did a great job of being on the forefront of understanding how to run a college program with transfers and expanding on caliparis use of nba sets.

He did a great job here. He failed miserably in Chicago. And regardless of the front office issues there, his teams looked unprepared and uncoached.

I’m sorry that the gm’s around the league rated him the worst coach in the nba the last two years he was in Chicago. I’m sorry he had to take the Nebraska job, because there wasn’t any other coaching opportunities for him.

I choose to root for coaches that want to be here, whether they are alumni or not.

 

[Sigmapolis]

defense eff average under CFH 97.8
Defense eff average under CSP 98.2

We keep saying the defense is better under CSP but is that supported by the defense efficiency numbers? The two Best def eff for a team in the last 9 years were both under CFH.

In the same vein the efficiency numbers will tell us that CSP’s offenses have been more efficient that CFH.

Your calculation relies on the raw efficiency numbers, not their rankings relative to the rest of college basketball. The overall efficiency of offenses and defenses per 100 goes up and down slightly every season, so the rankings would be a better metric to where the program is relative to the “rest of the field” out there.

By that...

Prohm averages #8.3333.
Hoiberg averaged #13.

...if you only consider the “good” years with tournament appearances and not the two bad rebuilding years we had.

The idea that Prohm has run out a significantly worse offensive team is ludicrous. You could say the rankings are close enough to say there is not a difference of note between the two eras, but the evidence is actually in favor of Prohm being slightly ahead of Hoiberg, not the other way around. Prohm teams can score against some very good defensive squads.

 

[rochclone]

Your calculation relies on the raw efficiency numbers, not their rankings relative to the rest of college basketball. The overall efficiency of offenses and defenses per 100 goes up and down slightly every season, so the rankings would be a better metric to where the program is relative to the “rest of the field” out there.

By that...

Prohm averages #8.3333.
Hoiberg averaged #13.

...if you only consider the “good” years with tournament appearances and not the two bad rebuilding years we had.

The idea that Prohm has run out a significantly worse offensive team is ludicrous. You could say the rankings are close enough to say there is not a difference of note between the two eras, but the evidence is actually in favor of Prohm being slightly ahead of Hoiberg, not the other way around. Prohm teams can score against some very good defensive squads.

I think the raw efficiency numbers have to be recognized as well. But I understand and appreciate the slight variance year to year based upon rule changes, emphasis by officials as well. I don’t think we are seeing this much differently.

The idea that CFH’s teams were so much better on offense should be debunked when brought up. At the same point the ideas that we are “significantly improved” on defense or substantially better on the road under CSP vs. CFH isn’t supported by the facts either.

They are both good coaches that have weaknesses. CFH when it came to discipline and focus of his teams and CSP at times with in-game adjustments.

I appreciate the discussion. What are your thoughts/season prediction for this year? Are we in agreement that another shooter Jackson or Lewis is necessary for this team to succeed? Do you agree with me that Nixon could be a liability offensively given his 3pt percentages at CSU and now the line being pushed back.

 

[VeloClone]

I don't understand why I can't appreciate what Fred did dragging the program out of the depths to which it had plunged, understand that he was fulfilling a dream when he left to go coach in the NBA and also understand that we have a very capable coach filling the position now. Why do I either have to hate Fred and besmirch his record at ISU and/or hate him for leaving to realize his dream or attack Prohm and try to tear down and minimize the success he has had?

 

[madguy30]

I don't understand why I can't appreciate what Fred did dragging the program out of the depths to which it had plunged, understand that he was fulfilling a dream when he left to go coach in the NBA and also understand that we have a very capable coach filling the position now. Why do I either have to hate Fred and besmirch his record at ISU and/or hate him for leaving to realize his dream or attack Prohm and try to tear down and minimize the success he has had?

Your point stands but didn't Jack die in that movie?

 

[FOREVERTRUE]

I've debated whether or not I should wade into this discussion, but I do have to point out, I love Hilton Magic as much as anybody, but what made Hilton Magic was the amazing comebacks and one of the reasons I have for years called us the cardiac clones. I always hated the getting behind so far that we needed the amazing run to get back in and win a game, but that run to come back and win was amazing and makes for an electric atmosphere.

This is one of the main differences I see in the last few years the comebacks don't "seem" as drastic hence less magic, but all in all I just want to win, not get so far behind the chains that it takes a miracle or "magic" to get back into a game.

 

[Walden4Prez]

Prohm averages #8.3333.
Hoiberg averaged #13.
Epstein didn't kill himself

FIFY

 

[rochclone]

Who are you

Why are you not telling me the names of the prohm defenders that criticize Campbell?


And lol at you. You have Jeremy agreeing with you. That should tell you everything about what you’re doing
so, again, the names of the prohm defenders going after Campbell like you’re going after prohm?

I don’t need to call out a group of Cyclone fans. But if you go to post #340 and then review the aforementioned threads you will see one of them. Cyteful (In or Un) is another one but he might be an alt. There are others (about 4) but I’m not starting a war with them as they seem to actually want to participate in a discussion.

 

[CoKane]

Gonna try to reply to this without ******* the format. Easier sad than done.


"W's are W's, home or road. I like Hilton Magic, too, but we seem to have this unique thing as a fan base where we count home wins more than road wins. Nobody else does."

Sure, you can argue that and that's not an awful point. Should still do better than 5-4 at home in conference play. That's awful, especially when a big part of our programs appeal nationally is that Hilton is one of the hardest places to play at. Kinda hard to sell that when pretty much everyone has won here in the last 3 years. I dont know if nobody else does value home wins though. I think KU or Duke fans would be pretty mad if they lost 4 times at home in one conference season.

I remember Hoiberg teams with some awful dry spells, too.

Cool. Good for him. I'm not comparing Hoiberg and Prohm though. I'm talking about Prohm. We shouldn't have to let the other team rip off a 22-0 run on us before he thinks about calling a timeout. We shouldn't have a 5.5 minute scoring drought in AFH before he stops play and tries something different. The top tier coaches don't let that happen.

Meh. Everybody is kind of discombobulated to start the season.

Fair. All 350 something fan bases probably complain about this. Just wanted to bring that up because I've seen it a few times and don't completely disagree with it.



I thought these were fun.

I did too! They were a lot of fun! That plays into my point though. Where is that team during a January home game against Texas or a road game against West Virginia in February? Why does it always take a tournament or KU to get the best out of his players? That's why people are mad. Good coaches don't make you feel like you're seeing the team play it's best on special occasions like we do with Prohm.

I'm not calling Prohm a failure by any means, but some of you guys treat Prohm like he's Coach K or Bill Self or even Chris Beard and that's insane. if he shows me something this year I'll be more than happy to get back on the Prohm train. In this moment in time I just don't see him taking us anywhere near where we could be. Sometimes winning the Big 12 tournament and first weekend exits are fun to an extent. At some point the program needs to take a step past that and I don't think Prohm is capable of doing that. We'll see I guess, but right now the program feels very stagnant and I don't think we're going to be having any deep runs in March or making a run at a regular season title any time soon and if we want to be a top basketball program like we can be we're going to have to cross that bridge some day.

EDIT: Dammit I ****** it up.

 

[Cat Stevens]

Gonna try to reply to this without ******* the format. Easier sad than done.


"W's are W's, home or road. I like Hilton Magic, too, but we seem to have this unique thing as a fan base where we count home wins more than road wins. Nobody else does."

Sure, you can argue that and that's not an awful point. Should still do better than 5-4 at home in conference play. That's awful, especially when a big part of our programs appeal nationally is that Hilton is one of the hardest places to play at. Kinda hard to sell that when pretty much everyone has won here in the last 3 years. I dont know if nobody else does value home wins though. I think KU or Duke fans would be pretty mad if they lost 4 times at home in one conference season.

I remember Hoiberg teams with some awful dry spells, too.

Cool. Good for him. I'm not comparing Hoiberg and Prohm though. I'm talking about Prohm. We shouldn't have to let the other team rip off a 22-0 run on us before he thinks about calling a timeout. We shouldn't have a 5.5 minute scoring drought in AFH before he stops play and tries something different. The top tier coaches don't let that happen.

Meh. Everybody is kind of discombobulated to start the season.

Fair. All 350 something fan bases probably complain about this. Just wanted to bring that up because I've seen it a few times and don't completely disagree with it.



I thought these were fun.

I did too! They were a lot of fun! That plays into my point though. Where is that team during a January home game against Texas or a road game against West Virginia in February? Why does it always take a tournament or KU to get the best out of his players? That's why people are mad. Good coaches don't make you feel like you're seeing the team play it's best on special occasions like we do with Prohm.

I'm not calling Prohm a failure by any means, but some of you guys treat Prohm like he's Coach K or Bill Self or even Chris Beard and that's insane. if he shows me something this year I'll be more than happy to get back on the Prohm train. In this moment in time I just don't see him taking us anywhere near where we could be. Sometimes winning the Big 12 tournament and first weekend exits are fun to an extent. At some point the program needs to take a step past that and I don't think Prohm is capable of doing that. We'll see I guess, but right now the program feels very stagnant and I don't think we're going to be having any deep runs in March or making a run at a regular season title any time soon and if we want to be a top basketball program like we can be we're going to have to cross that bridge some day.

EDIT: Dammit I ****** it up.

who treats him like coach k?

 

[Halincandenza]

who treats him like coach k?

By Coach K, I think he meant Coach Kruger.

 

[Statefan10]

Gonna try to reply to this without ******* the format. Easier sad than done.


"W's are W's, home or road. I like Hilton Magic, too, but we seem to have this unique thing as a fan base where we count home wins more than road wins. Nobody else does."

Sure, you can argue that and that's not an awful point. Should still do better than 5-4 at home in conference play. That's awful, especially when a big part of our programs appeal nationally is that Hilton is one of the hardest places to play at. Kinda hard to sell that when pretty much everyone has won here in the last 3 years. I dont know if nobody else does value home wins though. I think KU or Duke fans would be pretty mad if they lost 4 times at home in one conference season.

[QUOTE="Sigmapolis, post: 6870461, member: 12529"
I remember Hoiberg teams with some awful dry spells, too.

Cool. Good for him. I'm not comparing Hoiberg and Prohm though. I'm talking about Prohm. We shouldn't have to let the other team rip off a 22-0 run on us before he thinks about calling a timeout. We shouldn't have a 5.5 minute scoring drought in AFH before he stops play and tries something different. The top tier coaches don't let that happen.

[QUOTE="Sigmapolis, post: 6870461, member: 12529"
Meh. Everybody is kind of discombobulated to start the season.
[/QUOTE]
Fair. All 350 something fan bases probably complain about this. Just wanted to bring that up because I've seen it a few times and don't completely disagree with it.


[QUOTE="Sigmapolis, post: 6870461, member: 12529"
I thought these were fun.
[/QUOTE]
I did too! They were a lot of fun! That plays into my point though. Where is that team during a January home game against Texas or a road game against West Virginia in February? Why does it always take a tournament or KU to get the best out of his players? That's why people are mad. Good coaches don't make you feel like you're seeing the team play it's best on special occasions like we do with Prohm.

I'm not calling Prohm a failure by any means, but some of you guys treat Prohm like he's Coach K or Bill Self or even Chris Beard and that's insane. if he shows me something this year I'll be more than happy to get back on the Prohm train. In this moment in time I just don't see him taking us anywhere near where we could be. Sometimes winning the Big 12 tournament and first weekend exits are fun to an extent. At some point the program needs to take a step past that and I don't think Prohm is capable of doing that. We'll see I guess, but right now the program feels very stagnant and I don't think we're going to be having any deep runs in March or making a run at a regular season title any time soon and if we want to be a top basketball program like we can be we're going to have to cross that bridge some day.

EDIT: Dammit I ****** it up.[/QUOTE]
Prohm's first year: Sweet 16 run with a loss to Virginia
Prohm's second year: Big 12 Tournament Title, Loss by 4 to the Big 10 Regular Season Champs Purdue
Prohm's third year: Bad year, things caught up to him recruiting, injuries plagued a probable NIT team
Prohm's fourth year: Big 12 Tournament Title, loss by 3 to Ohio State in which we shot the worst we've shot basically all year long.

I'm not saying I don't want to go farther in the NCAA tournament, or win the regular season Big 12 Title, but I am definitely not going to be upset with what we've had so far.

 

[Cat Stevens]

By Coach K, I think he meant Coach Kruger.

this is the same poster that ripped the coaches after the Iowa game. The baylor game. And this past weekend.

i was told that prohm defenders were the ones going after the football staff.

the dumbest part about what he wrote, other than all of the factual errors, is that the reason people come on here and defend prohm is exactly for stupid posts like his.

I don’t think there is one person that has ever referred to Steve prohm in the same breath as K, Roy, self, jay, etc.

But he isn’t the terrible coach these folks say he is. And there are a lot of guys that have played for him here that will tell you he made them better, including the 8 in the nba right now.

 

[Cat Stevens]

Cool. Good for him. I'm not comparing Hoiberg and Prohm though. I'm talking about Prohm. We shouldn't have to let the other team rip off a 22-0 run on us before he thinks about calling a timeout. We shouldn't have a 5.5 minute scoring drought in AFH before he stops play and tries something different. The top tier coaches don't let that happen.

[QUOTE="Sigmapolis, post: 6870461, member: 12529"
Meh. Everybody is kind of discombobulated to start the season.

Fair. All 350 something fan bases probably complain about this. Just wanted to bring that up because I've seen it a few times and don't completely disagree with it.


[QUOTE="Sigmapolis, post: 6870461, member: 12529"
I thought these were fun.
[/QUOTE]
I did too! They were a lot of fun! That plays into my point though. Where is that team during a January home game against Texas or a road game against West Virginia in February? Why does it always take a tournament or KU to get the best out of his players? That's why people are mad. Good coaches don't make you feel like you're seeing the team play it's best on special occasions like we do with Prohm.

I'm not calling Prohm a failure by any means, but some of you guys treat Prohm like he's Coach K or Bill Self or even Chris Beard and that's insane. if he shows me something this year I'll be more than happy to get back on the Prohm train. In this moment in time I just don't see him taking us anywhere near where we could be. Sometimes winning the Big 12 tournament and first weekend exits are fun to an extent. At some point the program needs to take a step past that and I don't think Prohm is capable of doing that. We'll see I guess, but right now the program feels very stagnant and I don't think we're going to be having any deep runs in March or making a run at a regular season title any time soon and if we want to be a top basketball program like we can be we're going to have to cross that bridge some day.

EDIT: Dammit I ****** it up.[/QUOTE]
Prohm's first year: Sweet 16 run with a loss to Virginia
Prohm's second year: Big 12 Tournament Title, Loss by 4 to the Big 10 Regular Season Champs Purdue
Prohm's third year: Bad year, things caught up to him recruiting, injuries plagued a probable NIT team
Prohm's fourth year: Big 12 Tournament Title, loss by 3 to Ohio State in which we shot the worst we've shot basically all year long.

I'm not saying I don't want to go farther in the NCAA tournament, or win the regular season Big 12 Title, but I am definitely not going to be upset with what we've had so far.[/QUOTE]


The biggest irony is these guys holding him to standards that have never been reached on a consistent basis in the history of this place.

 

[Statefan10]

Fair. All 350 something fan bases probably complain about this. Just wanted to bring that up because I've seen it a few times and don't completely disagree with it.


[QUOTE="Sigmapolis, post: 6870461, member: 12529"
I thought these were fun.

I did too! They were a lot of fun! That plays into my point though. Where is that team during a January home game against Texas or a road game against West Virginia in February? Why does it always take a tournament or KU to get the best out of his players? That's why people are mad. Good coaches don't make you feel like you're seeing the team play it's best on special occasions like we do with Prohm.

I'm not calling Prohm a failure by any means, but some of you guys treat Prohm like he's Coach K or Bill Self or even Chris Beard and that's insane. if he shows me something this year I'll be more than happy to get back on the Prohm train. In this moment in time I just don't see him taking us anywhere near where we could be. Sometimes winning the Big 12 tournament and first weekend exits are fun to an extent. At some point the program needs to take a step past that and I don't think Prohm is capable of doing that. We'll see I guess, but right now the program feels very stagnant and I don't think we're going to be having any deep runs in March or making a run at a regular season title any time soon and if we want to be a top basketball program like we can be we're going to have to cross that bridge some day.

EDIT: Dammit I ****** it up.[/QUOTE]
Prohm's first year: Sweet 16 run with a loss to Virginia
Prohm's second year: Big 12 Tournament Title, Loss by 4 to the Big 10 Regular Season Champs Purdue
Prohm's third year: Bad year, things caught up to him recruiting, injuries plagued a probable NIT team
Prohm's fourth year: Big 12 Tournament Title, loss by 3 to Ohio State in which we shot the worst we've shot basically all year long.

I'm not saying I don't want to go farther in the NCAA tournament, or win the regular season Big 12 Title, but I am definitely not going to be upset with what we've had so far.[/QUOTE]


The biggest irony is these guys holding him to standards that have never been reached on a consistent basis in the history of this place.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree. Most are acting like Fred had us in the Elite 8 every year and winning the regular season title every year. I'm not hating on Fred either, but it was easy to say how amazing Fred was because the bar was so low when he came in. The bar was incredibly high when Prohm came in and some are mad that he hasn't been significantly better, when in reality, he's been about the same.

 

[Clonefan32]

Hmmm- After working thru 18 pages on this thread I am beginning to understand why the coaches like to keep the box scores from secret scrimmages a secret.

No ****. I've been somewhat up-and-down on Prohm myself, but I figure I'll at least wait until the games start to weigh in on what kind of job he's doing.

 

[IASTATE07]

I don’t need to call out a group of Cyclone fans. But if you go to post #340 and then review the aforementioned threads you will see one of them. Cyteful (In or Un) is another one but he might be an alt. There are others (about 4) but I’m not starting a war with them as they seem to actually want to participate in a discussion.

This is kind of what I thought.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I think the raw efficiency numbers have to be recognized as well. But I understand and appreciate the slight variance year to year based upon rule changes, emphasis by officials as well. I don’t think we are seeing this much differently.

The idea that CFH’s teams were so much better on offense should be debunked when brought up. At the same point the ideas that we are “significantly improved” on defense or substantially better on the road under CSP vs. CFH isn’t supported by the facts either.

They are both good coaches that have weaknesses. CFH when it came to discipline and focus of his teams and CSP at times with in-game adjustments.

I appreciate the discussion. What are your thoughts/season prediction for this year? Are we in agreement that another shooter Jackson or Lewis is necessary for this team to succeed? Do you agree with me that Nixon could be a liability offensively given his 3pt percentages at CSU and now the line being pushed back.

I agree with you -- no one metric ever solves a problem like this, but if one uses a mixture of the raw and relative efficiency numbers... well, we have ourselves a push.

I know we, as close followers of the program, can point out some relatively nuanced differences between Hoiberg teams and Prohm teams, but to the rest of the country, I think there is a lot more continuity between the eras than most of us describe. Heck, there is a lot of continuity going back to the Orr days in many ways. Iowa State is still a glass cannon of offensive firepower but iffy defense, who can rise up to beat anybody on a good day but can step on a rake against inferior foes on a bad day, with a raucous but well-informed and generally well-behaved fan base, who recruits and plays a lot of transfers. That is just Iowa State.

Pollard was explicit that he hired Prohm for continuity in style and personality, and the guys on the team when he came in asked for those things, as well. Seems like we got it.

I know the residents of Columbus and Indianapolis can probably point out many differences between the other, but flying over them from Washington to Chicago (as I often do), they both look like vaguely circular Midwestern cities of 2-3 million people with a beltway highway and no real topographical features (e.g., a river) to justify their existence there.

This year? I am not sure. We have a higher standard deviation of potential outcomes this year than we have in years past. If we make it into the NCAA tournament, then I am more than willing to call this a successful year. Haliburton is going to have to be *the man,* Jacobson is going to need to play at his best all the time and Solomon might need to be even better, you need significant development from bench guys last year like Lewis and Griffin, and you need Nixon and Bolton to greatly improve their defense and their efficiency on offense. Both them were mediocre or even bad chuckers previously. There are just a lot of unknowns and guys we need to play roles that we have not seen them play before. It will be fun to follow either way.

 

[CoKane]

this is the same poster that ripped the coaches after the Iowa game. The baylor game. And this past weekend.

i was told that prohm defenders were the ones going after the football staff.

the dumbest part about what he wrote, other than all of the factual errors, is that the reason people come on here and defend prohm is exactly for stupid posts like his.

I don’t think there is one person that has ever referred to Steve prohm in the same breath as K, Roy, self, jay, etc.

But he isn’t the terrible coach these folks say he is. And there are a lot of guys that have played for him here that will tell you he made them better, including the 8 in the nba right now.

I ripped the coaches after this weekends game? Interesting since I was at the game and not posting during it and didn't get home until late and didn't log on fora day or 2 because I didn't have anything to say. Why does lying and insulting people make you so happy Cat? You have issues you need to work through. I gave Prohm credit on top of the criticism but you're pissing and moaning because I'm not kneeling at his alter.

 

[CoKane]

I completely agree. Most are acting like Fred had us in the Elite 8 every year and winning the regular season title every year. I'm not hating on Fred either, but it was easy to say how amazing Fred was because the bar was so low when he came in. The bar was incredibly high when Prohm came in and some are mad that he hasn't been significantly better, when in reality, he's been about the same.

I get it. We've more often than not sucked. So has Texas Tech though and they won a regular season title played in the national title game this year. You can overcome what your past says you are in college sports. If they can do it so can we. We gotta leave this poor Iowa State, always the underdog crap behind us eventually. We've been a good program for what, 9 years now? We're the only ones who views our basketball program like this anymore. There are some kids who don't have memories of us being awful and don't even know who Wayne Morgan is. We've been in a position to take the next step for a while now and haven't