Game of Thrones Season 5

[jdoggivjc]

Rumors based on advanced IMDB entries have been wrong more often than not as it pertains to GoT. I would be shocked if LSH is in the finale if for no other reason there's no one even remotely close to where she should be showing up.

I think the rumors of some Iron Islanders showing up is far more likely given that we know they are casting for some of those parts for S6.

Unless the explanation is that LSH is showing up in a place where she's not supposed to be showing up. Because, you know, that never happens in this show. Sansa Stark, Jaime Lannister, Samwell Tarly, Gilly, Maester Aemon, Davos Seaworth, and Petyr Baelish are all exactly where they're supposed to be, Barristan Selmy and Selyse are alive like they should be, etc.

I'm not saying LSH is showing up, at this point her appearance makes no sense as the Brotherhood without Banners and the Freys and Tullys have basically been written off of the show (unless they plan on chaos in the Riverlands such as random Frey murders next season). Just saying it wouldn't be the first time the show writers took a character and reassigned its role - for instance, LSH could go after those allied with the Boltons in the North - she knows Roose Bolton was in on her murder.

 

[ThatllDoCy]

What is really interesting is what will Davos Seaworth do after Shireen's burning? Will this push him away from Stannis? He has serious reservations about who Stannis is becoming and it may not sit with him.

Really interested to see what they do with Sansa. I was thinking they were developing her as a femme fatale and she has the looks to pull it off. Eventually, she will need to use her wits and beauty to find a man who will protect and champion her cause. Could it be Tyiion in the end? Could she be a bargaining chip for Stannis to unite the north?

 

[jdoggivjc]

What is really interesting is what will Davos Seaworth do after Shireen's burning? Will this push him away from Stannis? He has serious reservations about who Stannis is becoming and it may not sit with him.

Really interested to see what they do with Sansa. I was thinking they were developing her as a femme fatale and she has the looks to pull it off. Eventually, she will need to use her wits and beauty to find a man who will protect and champion her cause. Could it be Tyiion in the end? Could she be a bargaining chip for Stannis to unite the north?

Interesting that you say that, because that's all Sansa has ever been - someone else's bargaining chip. First as King Robert's way to unite the Baratheons and Starks like should have been done with Robert marrying Lyanna; then as the way to make sure the Starks keep Jaime alive in captivity; then as the Lannister's claim to Winterfell and the North (via marriage to Tyrion); then on TV as the Bolton's claim to Winterfell and the North (via marriage to Ramsay); in the books as a way to bring the North into Petyr Baelish's "paper alliance" that already includes the Riverlands and the Vale.

You don't say Sansa will be treated as a bargaining chip...:twitcy:

 

[mkcrawford]

I have not read the books so all I know about LSH is what is posted in these threads. Based on that, I have a thought that her and Brieanne somehow work together, possibly unknowingly, and take Winterfell. Remember BoT and Lady Stark were the only two witnesses to Renly's death. Also, as committed as BoT is to her vow to the Stark's, rescuing Sansa may be the culmination of that vow. Probably a crazy idea, but BoT has been in limbo almost this entire season.

 

[ThatllDoCy]

Interesting that you say that, because that's all Sansa has ever been - someone else's bargaining chip. First as King Robert's way to unite the Baratheons and Starks like should have been done with Robert marrying Lyanna; then as the way to make sure the Starks keep Jaime alive in captivity; then as the Lannister's claim to Winterfell and the North (via marriage to Tyrion); then on TV as the Bolton's claim to Winterfell and the North (via marriage to Ramsay); in the books as a way to bring the North into Petyr Baelish's "paper alliance" that already includes the Riverlands and the Vale.

You don't say Sansa will be treated as a bargaining chip...:twitcy:

I would love to see her use her name, beauty, even maidenhood to champion her family. That dream is still alive in the books, but not the show.

Having a strong female character like Arianne is fun to read. Cersei is selfisha dn foolish, Melisandre is Evil, Dany is not in Westeros, and the She Bear isn't even really written about or seen to this point, Arya is a cold blooded assassin. Maybe I am just wanting something that just won't fit in Westeros, but I would like to see a heroine that was not necessarily Joan of Ark, but a throwback to chivalry in an at least small way.

I will be disappointed if Sansa never gets beyond being a bargaining chip.

 

[ThatllDoCy]

I have not read the books so all I know about LSH is what is posted in these threads. Based on that, I have a thought that her and Brieanne somehow work together, possibly unknowingly, and take Winterfell. Remember BoT and Lady Stark were the only two witnesses to Renly's death. Also, as committed as BoT is to her vow to the Stark's, rescuing Sansa may be the culmination of that vow. Probably a crazy idea, but BoT has been in limbo almost this entire season.

Even in the books anything we know very little about LSH and her role. The only interaction is with Brienne as far as point of view characters go. The Brotherhood without Banners is a nice little nod to Robin Hood, but you hear next to nothing about them. They will have a part to play, but probably not one that major. I would love it though. She could patrol the tombs of Winterfell while Sansa reigns.

There are a lot of houses in the North that have fierce loyalty to the Starks. Not really seen in the show, but it is a theme in the books and Bolton's know it. Luckily they have softened Ramsay who is nothing more than a brigand in the books, and is kind to Sansa comparatively speaking in the show. Maybe one of these houses will show up.

 

[jdoggivjc]

Even in the books anything we know very little about LSH and her role. The only interaction is with Brienne as far as point of view characters go. The Brotherhood without Banners is a nice little nod to Robin Hood, but you hear next to nothing about them. They will have a part to play, but probably not one that major. I would love it though. She could patrol the tombs of Winterfell while Sansa reigns.

There are a lot of houses in the North that have fierce loyalty to the Starks. Not really seen in the show, but it is a theme in the books and Bolton's know it. Luckily they have softened Ramsay who is nothing more than a brigand in the books, and is kind to Sansa comparatively speaking in the show. Maybe one of these houses will show up.

There are also a lot of houses in the North that fiercely despise the Starks outside of the Boltons, particularly the Dustins, Ryswells, and Karstarks (although, like everyone in the North - except the Boltons - they also despise the Freys for the Red Wedding. Funny how they have pledged loyalty to a house that was equally responsible for the Red Wedding).

 

[ThatllDoCy]

There are also a lot of houses in the North that fiercely despise the Starks outside of the Boltons, particularly the Dustins, Ryswells, and Karstarks (although, like everyone in the North - except the Boltons - they also despise the Freys for the Red Wedding. Funny how they have pledged loyalty to a house that was equally responsible for the Red Wedding).

The Karstarks more out of rivalry and you would think they would be itching to get an Heir to Winterfell by marrying Sansa, but if I remember correctly they can't even get along with each other. The other complaints are sort of petty land disagreements, but I could be wrong.

The Manderly's, Crannogmen, Mormont's among others are all loyal. I am hoping that somehow through Sansa's knowledge that Bran and Rickon are alive that Davos' goes on his quest on way or another. I am really missing the Dire Wolves from the show. I am betting shaggy dog is getting real wild while we wait.

 

[BoxsterCy]

Now that the show is moving past the book all of the overthinking it book nerds are hanging out here in the show thread.

:smile:

 

[jdoggivjc]

The Karstarks more out of rivalry and you would think they would be itching to get an Heir to Winterfell by marrying Sansa, but if I remember correctly they can't even get along with each other. The other complaints are sort of petty land disagreements, but I could be wrong.

The Manderly's, Crannogmen, Mormont's among others are all loyal. I am hoping that somehow through Sansa's knowledge that Bran and Rickon are alive that Davos' goes on his quest on way or another. I am really missing the Dire Wolves from the show. I am betting shaggy dog is getting real wild while we wait.

Incorrect. There isnt't historically a rivalry between the Starks and Karstarks. Up until ASOIAF started, not only were the Karstarks one of the most loyal banners the Starks had, both the Starks and Karstarks viewed each other as kin because ancestrally the Karstarks are Starks. What happened is the Stark clan became too large for Winterfell to handle, so part of the family left and went to Karhold. They became known as the Starks of Karhold, or the Karhold Starks, eventually evolving to Karstarks.

Anyway, the Karstarks continued being one of the most loyal banners to the Starks until the events that happened in A Storm of Swords. From the ASOIAF Wiki:

Lord Karstark returns from the Westerlands with the rest of Robb's army. Finding that Catelyn Tully had freed Jaime Lannister from captivity in an effort to retrieve her daughters, Rickard feels she has robbed him of his vengeance. Driven to desperation, he and seven of his men murder the captive squires Tion Frey and Willem Lannister, killing two Tully men in the process. Meanwhile, his cavalry scours the Riverlands for Ser Jaime, as Rickard has promised the hand of his daughter Alys to whomever brings him Jaime's head.[SUP][4][/SUP]For his crime, Robb Stark sentences Rickard to death and beheads him. In his speech before his execution, Rickard appeals to his and his family's loyalty to House Stark, and curses Robb with an accusation of kinslaying due to the ancient relation between Karstarks and Starks. After the execution of Lord Rickard, the Karstark cavalry breaks away from the rest of the northmen and returns to Karhold.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Karstark

Two clans that viewed one another as kin became rivals when King Robb was forced to execute Lord Rickard Karstark due to his treasonous actions, and then the rest of the Karstarks abandoned the Starks.

Other than the Lannisters, there are really no houses in the North that historically rival the Starks. Up until ASOIAF started, most of the houses loved the Starks, and even the Boltons respected them (at least Eddard).

The only two houses that were less than loyal to the Starks and show bitterness towards them would be the Dustins and Ryswells, and that has to do with Barbrey Dustin (nee Ryswell) and the events leading up to Robert's Rebellion.

Barbrey Ryswell was infatuated with Brandon Stark (Eddard's older brother) and claims to have lost her maidenhead to him. Then (according to Barbrey Dustin) Maester Walys (at the time the maester of Winterfell) convinced Brandon Stark to marry Catelyn Tully in order to foster an alliance with the Tullys and the Riverlands as a whole. Barbrey claims Brandon never wanted to marry Catelyn, but in the end it doesn't really matter because Brandon Stark is murdered by Mad King Aerys Targaryen when he confronted him about his son Rhaegar "kidnapping" Lyanna. Eddard Stark marrys Catelyn Tully and Barbrey Ryswell marries Willam Dustin. Eddard Stark and Willam Dustin ride off to war in Robert's Rebellion, and Barbrey gifts Willam the finest red horse her family has, to which he promises to return it to her family when the war is over. Willam Dustin dies at Tower of Joy, and Eddard does return the red horse to Barbrey Dustin, but doesn't return Willam's body to be buried with his ancestors, and as such Barbrey Dustin now has fostered a gigantic grudge against the Starks, first because she didn't get to marry Brandon Stark, and then because she lost her husband because Eddard took her husband to war with him (and didn't at least return the body). Barbrey Dustin has sworn that, as long as she has the ability to do so, Eddard Stark will not be buried with his ancestors at Winterfell.

As far as the Karstarks "not getting along with one another, I don't imagine it will be a spoiler because I don't see the show touching it, but just in case...

Spoiler

With Lord Rickard Karstark dead, Harrion Karstark is the new Lord, however, he's a captive of the Lannisters (and probably still loyal to the Starks). Arnolf Karstark, the Castellan of Karhold, declares for Stannis Baratheon, but it's a plot as he's in bed with Roose Bolton. Arnolf wants to bait the Lannisters into killing Harrion, then in turn he would marry his son Cregan Karstark to Rickard Karstark's daughter Alys, and then once Stannis reaches Winterfell the Karstarks would turn on Stannis. However, Alys despises this treachery and rides to the wall and is saved by Lord Commander Jon Snow, and promptly marries her to Sigorn of Thenn (a wildling family that behaved more like people south of the Wall than they did fellow wildlings, and House Thenn is created from the marraige). When Cregan arrives at The Wall, Jon Snow has him arrested and thrown in the ice cells, and gives him the option of either joining the Night's Watch or dying. (The following is Winds of Winter content that GRRM has released on his website as preview chapters) Jon Snow then sends a raven to Stannis Baratheon letting him know of the plot, to which he immediately seizes Arnolf and his son Arthor, and gives them the choice of cooperation and swift death or burning at the stake.

As far as "land disputes", that has to do with House Hornwood, House Manderly, and Ramsay Snow/Bolton. Lady Donella Hornwood is suspicious that the Boltons want her land (as she has no heirs) and her suspicions are right, Ramsay Snow captures her and forces (abuses) her to marry him, then forces (abuses) her to designate him as heir of Hornwood. He then locks her in a tower and she starves to death (she's the widow that chewed off her fingers). Meanwhile the Manderlys have seized Hornwood to protect it from the Boltons. However, it is viewed that Ramsay is the rightful owner of Hornwood, so the Manderlys supposedly relinquish it. Meanwhile, Barbrey Dustin is suspicious that the remaining Hornwoods have not forgotten what Ramsay Bolton did to their House, and will probably follow whatever House Manderly does during Stannis' siege of Winterfell.

 

[ISUChippewa]

I would love to see her use her name, beauty, even maidenhood to champion her family. That dream is still alive in the books, but not the show.

Having a strong female character like Arianne is fun to read. Cersei is selfisha dn foolish, Melisandre is Evil, Dany is not in Westeros, and the She Bear isn't even really written about or seen to this point, Arya is a cold blooded assassin. Maybe I am just wanting something that just won't fit in Westeros, but I would like to see a heroine that was not necessarily Joan of Ark, but a throwback to chivalry in an at least small way.

I will be disappointed if Sansa never gets beyond being a bargaining chip.

I'm going to have to mildly disagree with you on Melisandre being "evil". I certainly don't think she's good in the traditional sense or is much of a heroine, but I do think she's just a fanatical zealot more than being truly malevolent for the sake of being malevolent. When you compare her to Cersei, for example, I don't think there's much of a question as to who the more "evil" one is.

 

[jdoggivjc]

I'm going to have to mildly disagree with you on Melisandre being "evil". I certainly don't think she's good in the traditional sense or is much of a heroine, but I do think she's just a fanatical zealot more than being truly malevolent for the sake of being malevolent. When you compare her to Cersei, for example, I don't think there's much of a question as to who the more "evil" one is.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your assertion (because I do think Cersei is more evil than Melisandre), I'd love to hear your assessment of Mola Ram from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

I'm going to have to mildly disagree with you on Melisandre being "evil". I certainly don't think she's good in the traditional sense or is much of a heroine, but I do think she's just a fanatical zealot more than being truly malevolent for the sake of being malevolent. When you compare her to Cersei, for example, I don't think there's much of a question as to who the more "evil" one is.

You poop a demon out of yourself like she did, you're evil imo

 

[ISUChippewa]

While I don't necessarily disagree with your assertion (because I do think Cersei is more evil than Melisandre), I'd love to hear your assessment of Mola Ram from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

Fair question....I would put him in the same category as I would Melisandre, a true zealot who will do anything they can to further their religious ideology, the morality of their actions be damned. I would also write that Mola Ram is more "evil" if for no other reason than in the structure of that particular movie he is really the only one who qualifies as a true "villain".

I think if GoT didn't have so many hundreds of characters who span the spectrum of morality from good to evil, honest to corrupt, Melisandre would and could definitely be put into the "evil" category. But, this is GoT we're talking about....so based on a sliding scale of "evil", from left to right going from "kind of" evil to truly, depraved, turn your stomach kind of evil I would go...

Melisandre.....Cersei....Walder Frey....Ramsey Bolton....and last, but certainly not least, the White Walkers.

 

[ISUChippewa]

You poop a demon out of yourself like she did, you're evil imo

Well, a couple of minor points on that...

1) I still choose to believe that women and girls don't poop, even in fantasy TV series.

2) I'm pretty sure she gave birth to the smoke demon traditionally, through the regular female route.

 

[ThatllDoCy]

I hope someone gets Roose and Ramsay Bolton this week and sends them the Starks regards as they cut their throats.

 

[CloneIce]

Can't wait for the finale tonight. I think we may finally see the resolution of some story lines that some of us have been waiting 4 years for. As a book reader, I've been loving the suspense as the show overtakes the books and I no longer know what is going to happen.

 

[CyArob]

Not a fan of them trying to tie up 10 storylines in one episode.

 

[BoxsterCy]

If only I knew someone with a vast network of spies. :smile:

 

[Al_4_State]

So, they kill off arguably the most important character in the series.

It makes it hard to still be interested without Jon Snow's story line.