Because it has better history than we do and it's easier to recruit to Norman than Ames. And OU is a national brand.
Williams & Blum Pod: How good is the ISU basketball job?
- Thread starter ChrisMWilliams
- Start date
OU doesn't have a basketball culture at all. Their gym is mostly more than half empty, heck it's not nearly full when they have had final 4 teams. They just don't care. I think the ISU job is the second best in the league. It has a basketball culture and unlike most of the other teams, ISU fans also travel and support the program
I know this meme gets passed around, but was the '19 team really the most talented in the conference?
I do not think so. Not really even close. I'll just use Texas Tech as an example.
Weiler-Babb = good college player, overseas player now
Haliburton = obviously turning into a monster, but he was a barely 18-year old freshman at the time
Shayok = had a cup of coffee in the NBA, D-League player
Horton-Tucker = similar to Haliburton... oozed talent but was still barely 18 years old at the time
Jacobson = okay college player with talent around him, overseas guy
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Wigginton = D-League guy
Lard = obviously talented but a complete headcase, not sure where he even ended up
Compare that to Texas Tech that same year...
Mooney = fifth-year senior, ended up a D-League guy (so Mooney > Nick)
Moretti = now one of the better players in Europe
Culver = second-team AA, Big 12 CPOTY, lottery pick (6th overall)
Odiase = fifth-year senior, briefly in the D-League and now in Europe
Owens = fifth-year senior, now in the D-League
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Francis = briefly in the D-League, now in Europe
Edwards = didn't find anything
Corprew = didn't find anything
That Texas Tech squad was more talented and experienced, top-to-bottom, than we were, especially considering that our two most talented players (Haliburton and Horton-Tucker) we just babies at the time.
You know how it is on the Internet, Chris --
Nuance isn't just rejected but actively resented. Trying to explain things just gets you a whiny "tl;dr" back.
The same could be said for Texas. Its still a more attractive job than ISU. 90% of coaches in America would tell you that too. They have more resources than Iowa State does. The potential to have more success>great fans
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Means a lot to the alumni and hardcore fans, doesn’t mean **** to coaching candidates and 98% of players.
The "bad luck" argument is a red herring for two reasons:
A) There's not a program in America that doesn't deal with the things being deemed as "bad luck". There is roster turnover everywhere. Everyone had to deal with Covid, and honestly if you think an extra few months of practice suddenly turns this squad into a contender you are blind. Acting like every coach in America doesn't deal with the things being coined as "bad luck" is ridiculous.
B) He had plenty of time to figure out how to replace his early departures. THT knew he was gone after Maui. Wigginton was no surprise after his sophomore year. We all knew Hali was gone after last year. None of these things were surprises and a real coach figures it out.
Steve's failures are 100% on him. He had way too many whiffs of the recruiting trail, and he has no clue how to construct a roster. He's unable to identify and fix weaknesses through recruiting or through coaching. We need to get over this idea that we would have maintain competitiveness if a few breaks had just gone his way because it completely ignores how truly horrible the last two years have been.
The fact anyone can make excuses for a guy who took over a better situation than probably any other newly hired coach in the last 5 years other than Chris Mack and turned it into what is literally a bottom 3 P5 team astounds me.
Reiterating what CW said, this wasn't a conversation on bad luck. Sure Steve dealt with some potentially unforeseen circumstances, but that's college basketball in 2021. Perhaps using the word luck in any context is the error. This was not what was intended with the conversation. Thanks for listening.
Im sorry but I just don’t agree that he had bad luck compared to other coaches. If you’re frustrated by discussion of part of your podcast maybe don’t post it in your discussion forum.
Of course it takes more than bad luck to torpedo a program. It takes incompetence, inability to recognize failure, and unwillingness to change. You mentioned McDermott and how he realized his failings but ended up moving on to Creighton before he could finish transitioning to a style of play appropriate for Big 12 talent. Prohm has had two whole years longer and a cherry starting position.
I've had to fire people that I like but I did the courtesy of not insulting them by saying they had bad luck. I pointed out their deficiencies, gave them time and facility to improve, and them fired them when they failed to do so. I want them to succeed, and letting them believe luck is a reason they are failing will lead them to further failure.
Bad luck has nothing to do with whats happening. Bad luck is having a star young player break his foot early in the tournament on a historically great team. Bad luck is a few bad calls meaning the difference in a couple games.
Incompetence is 0-18.
As for ISUs job rating in the Big12, I’d say we‘re maybe around 3rd to 4th due to fan and AD support and a great arena. I’d say KU, and Texas are probably the only two I’d say are better- one due to history and the other due to money. TCU I’d say is the worst job. Everything in between is debatable IMO.
Yep! That's exactly it. Everything in hindsight can also be looked at differently with the "luck" lens.
I also don't think any of this needs to be "this or that".....LOTS of variables go into being a successful coach and clearly his "recipe" hasn't worked...and you'd hope he'd adjust for what he has control over, respond for the things he doesn't have control over, and figure out how to do that in real time and also in a planful way.
CycloneErik
Well-Known Member
It's usually best just not to bother including a point like that. It doesn't make a point, but it will always derail a discussion.
love the podcast. You guys may have not meant it this way, but you did spend a not insignificant amount of time on bad luck and then talking about not having “the guys”, which read to me as also part of the “bad luck”.
It‘s just a really tired and frankly incorrect argument that we’ve heard about CSP for years now.
I really learned a lot in this thread, so many experts with all the answers. I feel I should be paying for this material.
I don’t know folks. Quantitatively, ISU is pretty unlucky this year 
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I think relevant to this conversation is the fact that even given a normal 2021, I'm not sure this team is anything more than a bottom 3 team. They'd have probably managed a few conference wins, but I just don't think a longer non-conference schedule and more practice time suddenly turns this team into a NCAA tournament team.
There was just no chance this team, as assembled, even given proper practice and non-conference games winds up being competitive with Baylor, Kansas, Oklahoma, Okie State, WVU or Tech. KSU and TCU, sure. And maybe an upset or two. But they were never going to be a tournament team.
I think you bring up a point about recruiting players with health issues. Hinson had well documented health issues at Ole Miss, but do we know if it’s the same thing keeping him out? Just wondering if he was good to go then they found something new like what happened with Duggan at TCU or other players who had heart problems discovered. Also wasn’t fosters injury, this year and not an injury that builds up? Overall I think you point is valid but I am not 100% sure if it applies here.
As for bad luck, I personally think prohm has had more bad luck than good luck here. That being said that is far from the only or even main reason for his lack of success. People tend to jump on the bad luck thing thinking it’s the only reason for a lack of success.
While I agree, Iowa State had 7 new players and no other Big 12 program did, which made COVID and lack of normal pre-season prep extra difficult. At the same time this roster situation is a self-created issue. So I understand how the basketball staff felt hand-cuffed but also why it’s ultimately hard to blame luck.
What happens if Naz doesn’t get hurt and doesn’t get his 5th year of eligibility? That along with Monte coming back for his senior season was an incredible amount of good luck for Prohms second year. Who knows if we make the tournament without those two things happening.
Towards the end of the podcast Chris was talking about Heacock and mentioned how good coaches like him adjust. Prohm didn't adjust; he didn't make staff changes when he should have. He was too damn stubborn.
