USS Arizona - After all this time . . .

CyValley

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Wow. Never knew that there were so many political maneuvers related to these historical events.

My two sons are in their 30s. Occasionally I've pointed out to them, during one or another discussion, that politics is not an external entity to which we choose to embrace or not.

I tell them that politics is who we are, that it is internal to the human condition. Politics is just another name for subjectiveness, for how we engage with one another.

I'm not sure if they buy that or not. . . . ;)
 
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CyValley

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I was just there in December. They actually request that people don’t take pictures at the memorial. Said it like 10 times and people still did it, kind of pissed me off.

Please don't shoot photos. (Had to correct myself after your post!)

Found this link online, it appears to be official, photos of the Arizona memorial. There are National Park Service sites online, too:
 

20eyes

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I have heard that, I have also heard that the Missouri was just a little bit newer, cleaner, and nicer at the time.
The Iowa was the only ship in the fleet outfitted with a bathtub, reason being that FDR couldn't use a shower due to being disabled by polio. Had FDR not died, and was still president, the surrender would absolutely have been on the Iowa.
 

CyValley

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I am biased after reading this book in HS but The Big E was the most important ship in the Navy for a couple of years following Pearl Harbor and by rights should have been the surrender ship. . . . The disaster was losing the Philippines. A bunch of old slow battleships weren't going to turn the tide. A small force of fleet of carriers could and did (plus the submarine fleet that gets a nod of respect at Pearl Harbor but generally not much as much credit as deserved).

I'm a patron (small dollar, unfortunately) of both USS Iowa and USS New Jersey. I've read discussion at these sites and also elsewhere about the great respect with which The Big E is held. It was the most decorated U.S. warship of WWII, correct? I believe it was scrapped in, maybe, 1959? That was a sin, so many say; it should today be a museum ship. Without any question.

Some time ago I was fascinated to learn that the Japanese failed to adapt their war strategy, which was to deliver a crippling blow to the U.S. Pacific Fleet making recovery difficult and requiring years. The IJN would await, in its own waters, arrival of whatever meager force of ships the U.S. could muster and defeat it in a gigantic battleship engagement. That's right, battleships.

Meanwhile, the USN quickly adjusted to carrier warfare priority (well, there weren't many major surface combatants available early on) and achieved an incredible triumph only six months after Pearl Harbor, in June at Midway. The four IJN carriers involved in the December assault on Hawaii were sent to the bottom.

And submarines. The Pearl Harbor sub pens were undamaged, correct? After a horrendous defective torpedo problem was solved, the U.S. submarine force was strategically crucial thoughout the Pacific war. A tragically unheralded story of great human courage.

The Iowa Class battleships are special. Even today, although all four are museum ships, they remain the only big Navy ships in the world that can sail with U.S. CVNs at speed, knot for knot (33 knot design, but might have reached 36 knots in the 1980s). They are, some naval architects have opined, to be the finest warshps ever built by the United States.

Why? They were built without cost contraint; each cost some $110 million ($2.4 billion now); they were the most expensive "platforms" (non-nuclear?) weapons of all World War II.

Yet, the U.S. quickly cancelled the final two Iowas (Illinois and Kentucky) as well as the follow-on huge (but slower) Montana Class battleships. Carrier power ruled, and our people knew it.

Instead of traversing the Pacific with whatever naval power we could muster, 3-1/2 years after December 7 Admiral Nimitz sailed the western seas with a fleet of some 1680 ships. Not only was it larger than all the ships of the other Allied and Axis fleets combined, it was the most powerful in world history.

It's 2024, and this fact continues to overwhelm me. The U.S. priority in the war was Europe, and there went most of our effort. Although the Pacific was secondary, the awesome production of U.S. industry to deal with both theaters is difficult to comprehend. It's so fascinating.

(Wanted to mention that the four Iowas, though their mission changed, with 9-1/2 acres of deck space bristling with anti-aircraft weaponry, they sailed with the U.S.'s fast Essex Class carrier task forces, providing the top in-close air defense to our CVs.)
 
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CyValley

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The Missouri is awesome but you probably see 25% or less of the ship. That’s all they let you see. I could spend days there going through every room on every level. Those ships are amazing!

My son and D-I-L went to Missouri a couple of years ago. To them it seemed much of the ship was unavailable.

I've been impressed with the tours and activities open to visitors on the USS New Jersey and USS Iowa. Both have Web sites with a lot of information. Entertainment (movies on the fantails, overnight events for kids, CGI presentations, beer tastings (heh), and a lot more.

The New Jersey curator, Ryan Syzmanski, has posted hundreds of videos on the ship's YouTube channel.

BB62.png
 

cowboycurtis

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I think there's a WW2 sub on site you can tour also now.
The USS Bowfin I believe. I have been through the USS Drum at the USS Alabama museum so I didn’t go through the Bowfin as it costs extra and doesn’t take very long to go through. I can’t imagine being in one of those for months. It would test every aspect of survival and drive someone insane. Super tight quarters, extremely hot and the thought of drowning all the time would be enough to make me go crazy. US submariners lost more percentage wise during the war than any other type of soldier, sailor, or airman at 20% lost.
 
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Die4Cy

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The USS Bowfin I believe. I have been through the USS Drum at the USS Alabama museum so I didn’t go through the Bowfin as it costs extra and doesn’t take very long to go through. I can’t imagine being in one of those for months. It would test every aspect of survival and drive someone insane. Super tight quarters, extremely hot and the thought of drowning all the time would be enough to make me go crazy. US submariners lost more percentage wise during the war than any other type of soldier, sailor, or airman at 20% lost.
There were bunks in the engine room, IIRC. I don't know how they slept at all.
 

CyValley

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The Iowa was the only ship in the fleet outfitted with a bathtub, reason being that FDR couldn't use a shower due to being disabled by polio. Had FDR not died, and was still president, the surrender would absolutely have been on the Iowa.

SLAP ME UPSIDE THE HEAD!!! (Thank you, 20eyes.)

How could I forget maybe the most important reason many thought Iowa was set to be the surrender ship. FDR was aboard Iowa for 15 days in November 1943. Iowa transported FDR, the top military brass and chief cabinet officials to northwestern Africa and, later, return. From Africa FDR went on to the Tehran Conference to meet with Churchill and Stalin.

Iowa's first skipper, Capt. John McCrea, rescued a mutt and brought Vicky (a male but named for Victory) to live in his cabin on Iowa. An elevator was built to carry FDR from the main deck to the captain's cabin, where the president roomed during his days on Iowa. FDR loved dogs, and Vicky slept on his bed each night.

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Capt. McCrea and Vicky
aboard Iowa

All was done in secrecy, of course. Iowa sailed up Chesapeake Bay to meet the Presidential yacht, with FDR, coming down from Washington, D.C. The transfer was done in the dark of night. And Iowa and a few escorts were off to transit the central Atlantic.

But what is really fun to learn that while in transit, A TORPEDO WAS LAUNCHED AT IOWA . . . by a U.S. destroyer.

(EDIT: While looking for a good story about this, I came across this VIDEO! It is EXCEPTIONAL. Why? Because it's a funny young guy talking about serious topics. This guy is GOOD!)

 
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riceville98

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Iowa
I second that. I've learned so much in this thread. Thank you all and a special thanks to those that served or had family/friends that served. True heros, all of them!!
 
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CyValley

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Regarding the USS Iowa, did the turret explosion do permanant damage to the ship or did they just not have the need to make the turret operational again?

My understanding (and it might be flawed), the safety design elements worked superbly. Following the explosion, Iowa was able to sail under full power and, if it had been wartime, fight on.

The explosion occurred on April 19 (Lexington and Concord, of all dates) 1989. Missouri and Wisconsin fought in the 1990 Iraq war (in fact, the threat of more 16-inch shell bombardment caused an Iraqi compound to surrender to the Missouri's targeting drone flying overhead, knowing what was on the way. A first for the USN.)

The Iowas were on the way out of service because of the tremendous resources they required, including crews of nearly 1600 sailors, in the wake of the Soviet Union's collapse.

Because Iowa was on the chopping block with her sisters, repairs to Turret 2 were not made. Today, the area is considered sacred and is not open to tourists.
 
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CyValley

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When I was 14 I went to Pearl Harbor with my family and they showed a brief video before you would walk out and see the Arizona beneath the water. . . .

The most poignant memory was seeing oil still dripping up from the Arizona and break on the surface of the water. Even after all these years. That and knowing there’s still sailors buried beneath with the ship. It must have been just a horrific day.

Survivors, many of them choose to come home, to Arizona, to rest finally with those they lost on December 7.

 

IsUaClone2

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My family's experience in WW II:

My mother's uncle was on the older end of eligibility and went to work in an airplane factory.

One of my mother's aunts was a nurse and became one of the early female Army officers. I believe she was not deployed overseas.

My aunt's husband and my dad joined the Navy together but went to the Pacific Theater on separate ships in Sept 1943.

My dad's only sibling enlisted in the Marines while in high school and, after graduation, went to boot camp in June 1944. He was killed March 1945 by a sniper during the Iwo Jima invasion while trying to save a wounded friend. The friend survived.

My aunt's husband died May 1945 on the USS Bunker Hill during a kamikaze attack.

My dad was stationed at Pearl Harbor on the way over, then as radio support for the Marines during a couple of island invasions (but not Iwo Jima), and finally part of the occupying force in Japan until November 1945.
 

CyValley

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I hope to go to Normandy some day. . . .

A couple of years ago I stumbled upon a CBS news special broadcast on the 20th anniversary of D-Day, with Walter Cronkite and Dwight Eisenhower discussing the invasion while touring locations in England and Normandy. Dan Rather narrates.

The opening and the ending of the program makes me teary still. The deaths, the destruction of such a war. Ike's concluding statement, with an American cemetary stretching out behind him and Cronkite, and then the Order of Battle, it's a lot to take in.

00:00 - 03:50 opening
1:15:00 - ending

 
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