Star Wars Expanded Universe Thread

[Triggermv]

I'll agree with this to an extent. I think they came in with a beginning and an end. Here's Rey, here's where she needs to be by the third film. I think they messed up giving free reign to the directors. I personally really enjoy the Last Jedi, but stylistically, it's so jarringly different. It's essentially a Western, both in plot, and in filming style.

I would have liked to have seen what Rian could have done with his own trilogy instead of the middle piece of a pretty important puzzle for the Star Wars Cinematic Universe.

I'm not sure they even did come in from the get-go with a beginning and an end. Based on more and more that has surfaced behind the scenes over the past few years, it truly does seem like Kathleen Kennedy went to JJ, here you make your movie. Ok now Rian, you make your movie. Now, at that time, Trevorrow, here now you make your movie. Then, lets just hope it all ties together into one cohesive trilogy in the end. Now, in hindsight, we are supposed to be shocked when it feels like a big conjobbled mess of a vision in the end. Just listen to everything JJ says and it is VERY clear that not only did Rian NOT follow his original vision, but JJ wasn't super happy about it either. Personally, I couldn't help but feel the entire time while watching TLJ the first time was that Rian was giving JJ the big middle finger and saying eh, I'm going to go my own way with this thing, and I want to shock the world with every creative decision I make. Big creative leaps aren't necessarily bad things, but there isn't just applause for being willing to do them, they have to be good and coherant as well, which to me they were NOT. Shoot, they could have hired me and I could have made the most shocking Star Wars movie ever by flipping over every table imaginable. However, that doesn't mean that movie would be any good because trust me, it would NOT.

 

[harimad]

The reason I hate TLJ is the character decisions are mind-boggling to me. The decisions they make aren't logical, and also don't seem to be in-character either. I hate contrivance for contrivance sake. And the entire plot of that movie was contrivance after contrivance.

 

[agrabes]

I'm not sure they even did come in from the get-go with a beginning and an end. Based on more and more that has surfaced behind the scenes over the past few years, it truly does seem like Kathleen Kennedy went to JJ, here you make your movie. Ok now Rian, you make your movie. Now, at that time, Trevorrow, here now you make your movie. Then, lets just hope it all ties together into one cohesive trilogy in the end. Now, in hindsight, we are supposed to be shocked when it feels like a big conjobbled mess of a vision in the end. Just listen to everything JJ says and it is VERY clear that not only did Rian NOT follow his original vision, but JJ wasn't super happy about it either. Personally, I couldn't help but feel the entire time while watching TLJ the first time was that Rian was giving JJ the big middle finger and saying eh, I'm going to go my own way with this thing, and I want to shock the world with every creative decision I make. Big creative leaps aren't necessarily bad things, but there isn't just applause for being willing to do them, they have to be good and coherant as well, which to me they were NOT. Shoot, they could have hired me and I could have made the most shocking Star Wars movie ever by flipping over every table imaginable. However, that doesn't mean that movie would be any good because trust me, it would NOT.

I think it's fair to criticize the overall plan/direction from Lucasfilm/Disney on this thing. They should have had a plan from day one and stuck to it. Personally though, I'm don't think we should worry at all about what JJ thinks about the series. He has no creative authority over Star Wars, he's just a guy who was hired to direct two of the movies. If he was indeed given the reigns to decide the story of TFA, then he is to blame for these issues by putting the sequel trilogy of the rails to be a weird rehash of the original trilogy.

I don't think The Force Awakens was terrible, but it was extremely disappointing to me as a lifelong Star Wars fan. It opens with a huge gap in the story that was never filled in and didn't follow logically from the end of Return of the Jedi with the information we were given in the films. I wanted to see a new story - how do Luke, Leia, and Han manage as leaders in the new government they formed, what are the new challenges they face as they try to build a new government and new political order. How do they avoid the mistakes of the Jedi Council and the Old Republic? What's the new enemy they face? Instead, we get a reset back to the original trilogy. Our heroes are somehow all on the run again, leading yet another plucky rebellion still fighting what is basically The Empire. It doesn't advance the story, it was intentionally set up so that JJ Abrams could tell the story of a plucky rebellion again. There were definitely good moments there, but the story framework was set up in a bad way.

Fast forward to The Last Jedi, and you're already in a hole. How do you tell a new story about how our characters grow and do new things when the story has already been reset back to where they were in A New Hope? The only way you can do something different and interesting is by subverting some of the tropes of the series. There are plenty of flaws of TLJ, but in my view the major story related flaws are a result of the poor setup of TFA. The Sith Lord being killed with no build up sucks, but he was also introduced with no build up and no logical origin. Everything about him sucked. Rey's parents confirmed as unimportant, while disappointing to some fans, was again a result of the stupid decision to tease that they might be important and that she is somehow yet another figure from some odd prophecy that we somehow never learned about from the 6 prior films. The Jedi have been exterminated, everyone famous and interesting has been exterminated prior to her birth except for our heros and we learn in TFA that she's not any of their kids. Luke as a cranky old hermit full of self doubt was setup in multiple (now non cannon) Expanded Universe novels set in the early days post Return of the Jedi. A lot of people didn't like this, but again if you really are that deep of a Star Wars fan you should have expected it. Rian Johnson was in a hole from the beginning. He had to tell a meaningful story that wasn't a direct copy of the original trilogy and there was no room for him to do it without

Now, The Rise of Skywalker seems to want to go back and retcon all the interesting decisions made in TLJ. The fans who just want a rehash of the original trilogy will probably be happy. I'll go watch The Rise of Skywalker at some point, but I won't be fighting the crowds opening week.

 

[CloniesForLife]

I need to watch both of them again as it has been awhile and I have only seen TLJ once. I like TFA and was meh on TLJ.

 

[Triggermv]

I need to watch both of them again as it has been awhile and I have only seen TLJ once. I like TFA and was meh on TLJ.

Regardless of my re-watch thoughts on both movies, I'm glad I re-watched them, as I think there is enough smaller details in both movies you need to be reminded of in order to fully appreciate and understand this coming movie. I was surprised how much of those details I had already forgotten.

 

[CloniesForLife]

Regardless of my re-watch thoughts on both movies, I'm glad I re-watched them, as I think there is enough smaller details in both movies you need to be reminded of in order to fully appreciate and understand this coming movie. I was surprised how much of those details had had already forgotten.

Yeah I want to be able to fully appreciate the new movie when I see it.

 

[Triggermv]

I think it's fair to criticize the overall plan/direction from Lucasfilm/Disney on this thing. They should have had a plan from day one and stuck to it. Personally though, I'm don't think we should worry at all about what JJ thinks about the series. He has no creative authority over Star Wars, he's just a guy who was hired to direct two of the movies. If he was indeed given the reigns to decide the story of TFA, then he is to blame for these issues by putting the sequel trilogy of the rails to be a weird rehash of the original trilogy.

I don't think The Force Awakens was terrible, but it was extremely disappointing to me as a lifelong Star Wars fan. It opens with a huge gap in the story that was never filled in and didn't follow logically from the end of Return of the Jedi with the information we were given in the films. I wanted to see a new story - how do Luke, Leia, and Han manage as leaders in the new government they formed, what are the new challenges they face as they try to build a new government and new political order. How do they avoid the mistakes of the Jedi Council and the Old Republic? What's the new enemy they face? Instead, we get a reset back to the original trilogy. Our heroes are somehow all on the run again, leading yet another plucky rebellion still fighting what is basically The Empire. It doesn't advance the story, it was intentionally set up so that JJ Abrams could tell the story of a plucky rebellion again. There were definitely good moments there, but the story framework was set up in a bad way.

Fast forward to The Last Jedi, and you're already in a hole. How do you tell a new story about how our characters grow and do new things when the story has already been reset back to where they were in A New Hope? The only way you can do something different and interesting is by subverting some of the tropes of the series. There are plenty of flaws of TLJ, but in my view the major story related flaws are a result of the poor setup of TFA. The Sith Lord being killed with no build up sucks, but he was also introduced with no build up and no logical origin. Everything about him sucked. Rey's parents confirmed as unimportant, while disappointing to some fans, was again a result of the stupid decision to tease that they might be important and that she is somehow yet another figure from some odd prophecy that we somehow never learned about from the 6 prior films. The Jedi have been exterminated, everyone famous and interesting has been exterminated prior to her birth except for our heros and we learn in TFA that she's not any of their kids. Luke as a cranky old hermit full of self doubt was setup in multiple (now non cannon) Expanded Universe novels set in the early days post Return of the Jedi. A lot of people didn't like this, but again if you really are that deep of a Star Wars fan you should have expected it. Rian Johnson was in a hole from the beginning. He had to tell a meaningful story that wasn't a direct copy of the original trilogy and there was no room for him to do it without

Now, The Rise of Skywalker seems to want to go back and retcon all the interesting decisions made in TLJ. The fans who just want a rehash of the original trilogy will probably be happy. I'll go watch The Rise of Skywalker at some point, but I won't be fighting the crowds opening week.

While I don't totally agree with everything you said, I appreciate many of your points and see where you are coming from to some extent. As for the JJ thing, yeah, I don't think they should have been worried what JJ thought, I just bring up his sentiment mainly due to what it reveals of the overall Lucasfilm plan, or lack thereof, behind the scenes on this whole trilogy. If there was actually a plan, nothing Rian would have ended up doing would have or should have been too shocking to someone like JJ. Clearly, there just wasn't a plan.

 

[SCNCY]

I think it's fair to criticize the overall plan/direction from Lucasfilm/Disney on this thing. They should have had a plan from day one and stuck to it. Personally though, I'm don't think we should worry at all about what JJ thinks about the series. He has no creative authority over Star Wars, he's just a guy who was hired to direct two of the movies. If he was indeed given the reigns to decide the story of TFA, then he is to blame for these issues by putting the sequel trilogy of the rails to be a weird rehash of the original trilogy.

JJ is credited (along with a couple others) of writing The Force Awakens and Rise of Skywalker. I think, if I remember from when the Force Awakens was being directed, he had a plan for the entire trilogy, but I don't think Rian Johnon followed it. However, whatever JJ developed when he wrote Force Awakens, its LucasFilm's fault for not forcing Rian to follow it, or even approving the story arc of the trilogy from the get go.

It's been heavily speculated (maybe even confirmed) that Kathleen Kennedy gave to much power in the directors to make their film, as opposed to a film in a trilogy that needed to be connected.

 

[Triggermv]

JJ is credited (along with a couple others) of writing The Force Awakens and Rise of Skywalker. I think, if I remember from when the Force Awakens was being directed, he had a plan for the entire trilogy, but I don't think Rian Johnon followed it. However, whatever JJ developed when he wrote Force Awakens, its LucasFilm's fault for not forcing Rian to follow it, or even approving the story arc of the trilogy from the get go.

It's been heavily speculated (maybe even confirmed) that Kathleen Kennedy gave to much power in the directors to make their film, as opposed to a film in a trilogy that needed to be connected.

Yeah, this has been my biggest criticism of Kathleen Kennedy all along. She is an amazing producer and her record producing films speaks for itself. Her films look amazing and feel super high quality. In fact, I love the look and feel of all the new Star Wars movies over the over-CGI'd Marvel movies (you know I love me my Marvel movies too). However, I just do not think she is a very good strategic and creative vision person at all. Her job isn't only about creating that vision either, which I don't think she is good at, but also selling that vision to everyone else, most particularly her filmmakers. Clearly, based on all her well-publicized clashes with nearly every filmmaker she has worked with on a Star Wars movie shows she isn't good in that category either. In fact, the ONLY filmmaker she didn't clash with was Rian Johnson, who she pretty much let do whatever he wanted and also why I think she still somewhat clings to the guy. Shoot, he is the only guy she could get along with. She even had multiple clashes with JJ on the first movie which were much less publicized. Ultimately, I really hope and do think she will retire sometime soon after the end of this movie and after her contract expires. At that point, I hope she just gets back into producing individual movies, which she is obviously really good at. In the end, I don't even think she really likes or cares that much about Star Wars, which I think is another problem I have with her. I'd personally love someone more like a Kevin Feige who is kind of the whole package when it comes to everything I've listed.

 

[Hoggins]

Star Wars needs their own Kevin Fiege is what you're all basically saying.

 

[agrabes]

Yeah, this has been my biggest criticism of Kathleen Kennedy all along. She is an amazing producer and her record producing films speaks for itself. Her films look amazing and feel super high quality. In fact, I love the look and feel of all the new Star Wars movies over the over-CGI'd Marvel movies (you know I love me my Marvel movies too). However, I just do not think she is a very good strategic and creative vision person at all. Her job isn't only about creating that vision either, which I don't think she is good at, but also selling that vision to everyone else, most particularly her filmmakers. Clearly, based on all her well-publicized clashes with nearly every filmmaker she has worked with on a Star Wars movie shows she isn't good in that category either. In fact, the ONLY filmmaker she didn't clash with was Rian Johnson, who she pretty much let do whatever he wanted and also why I think she still somewhat clings to the guy. Shoot, he is the only guy she could get along with. She even had multiple clashes with JJ on the first movie which were much less publicized. Ultimately, I really hope and do think she will retire sometime soon after the end of this movie and after her contract expires. At that point, I hope she just gets back into producing individual movies, which she is obviously really good at. In the end, I don't even think she really likes or cares that much about Star Wars, which I think is another problem I have with her. I'd personally love someone more like a Kevin Feige who is kind of the whole package when it comes to everything I've listed.

Agreed in the sense that it really is the fault of the leadership or overall creative directors at Lucasfilm/Disney that didn't establish a good overall direction for the movies. That was the source of the problems.

JJ Abrams did establish a plot and direction in The Force Awakens, but since he was not placed in charge of the overall direction of the trilogy his direction and vision has no more value or authority than Rian Johnson's. With no overall direction, Rian Johnson has every right to change course if he thinks Abrams has started the story if he believes that Abrams has taken the story in a bad direction. If you can argue that Rian Johnson was required to follow on with the way JJ was telling the story, then you can also argue that JJ is now bound to follow Rian's vision for Rise of Skywalker.

To be honest, this kind of battle for the direction of the series has a long history in Star Wars. There were the famous issues early on with each author trying to pair Luke off with a character they created, then some authors trying to move him in a more celibate monk type direction. Then later (after I stopped really keeping up with the EU) apparently there was one author who tried to make Mandalorians out to be the best, most badass people in the galaxy who could easily defeat the Jedi with every other active author walking back how overpowered she kept making them. Disney's takeover seems to have eliminated that stuff in the novels and tie in works, but introduced into the main film series.

 

[Triggermv]

Star Wars needs their own Kevin Fiege is what you're all basically saying.

Yep, pretty much. Kathleen Kennedy = great producer, not Kevin Feige, and Star Wars needs a Kevin Feige

 

[harimad]

If you can argue that Rian Johnson was required to follow on with the way JJ was telling the story, then you can also argue that JJ is now bound to follow Rian's vision for Rise of Skywalker.

You could argue it, but it's a non-starter in my opinion. JJ's movie was widely liked. Rian's movie was widely disliked. Plus, JJ being given the third movie can be seen as repudiation of Rian's movie. All of that to say, I disagree with the argument that JJ would be bound to Rian's narratives.

 

[BryceC]

Overall, this movie is going to be really hard to judge fully from these reactions as one needs to remember that The Last Jedi had positive critical acclaim, even though the general audience mostly did not like the film. Then, to add to this, there is many hints from these reactions that this movie is a big departure from what we saw in TLJ.

I’ll be saying this until I die probably, but TLJ has an A+ cinemascore. It was liked a lot by audiences. It got put through the fanboy ringer.

There was a NYT article with the cast where they were clearly trying to distance themselves from TLJ. I’m excited to see the conclusion of this trilogy but I’m also excited to just simply put the Skywalkers in our rear view mirror.

 

[alarson]

I'll side with the critics on TLJ. TLJ was a great movie.

A certain segment that has been vocally hateful of a whole bunch of recent movies and tv decided to go full attack against TLJ, and they sold that message among a lot of people, and made it popular to hate on the movie simply because it dared to do things differently (after we had just had to deal with a couple years of people ******** that TFA was too unoriginal, ironically). IMO TLJ was the best star wars since Empire. Enjoyed it on the first viewing, enjoyed it more on second viewing.

 

[alarson]

I’ll be saying this until I die probably, but TLJ has an A+ cinemascore. It was liked a lot by audiences. It got put through the fanboy ringer.

Yep, this. Critics loved it, crowds loved it, and then a coordinated campaign was executed from some of the shittiest corners of the internet to convince people the movie sucked. To nitpick everything in a way that if you did for any other star wars movie, including the OT, those would also be considered ****** movies.

 

[NorthCyd]

I'll side with the critics on TLJ. TLJ was a great movie.

A certain segment that has been vocally hateful of a whole bunch of recent movies and tv decided to go full attack against TLJ, and they sold that message among a lot of people, and made it popular to hate on the movie simply because it dared to do things differently (after we had just had to deal with a couple years of people ******** that TFA was too unoriginal, ironically). IMO TLJ was the best star wars since Empire. Enjoyed it on the first viewing, enjoyed it more on second viewing.

I would call TLJ really good, but not great. There were a few really dumb things in that movie that are hard to get past, and some of the humor just falls totally flat. But it also has some of the greatest Star Wars moments. That scene where R2 shows Luke the original message from Leia is amazing and gets me in the feels every time.

It won't matter how good this movie is, there is going to be a very vocal group that is going to relentlessly let you know just how terrible this movie is and it wrecked their whole childhood. There are plenty on this forum. This is the one and only post I'm even going to have on the movie from here on out. The Star Wars fanbase has become so toxic and insufferable

 

[Die4Cy]

The job TFA had was to build a bridge. Revenge of the Sith did not have this problem, because everyone was already familiar with what was coming next in ANH, it was far easier to create a narrative when you know where you need to get to. So I have felt that Abrams understood the formula for that movie: reach back for some fan service to hem the universe together, and move forward with some new characters. He achieved that, some might say even beat us over the head with it, but left a good villain and a host of unexplored characters and one plot thread to lead into the next movie: what would happen when Luke was found, and what would become of Rey?

Now there is no question in my mind that Rian Johnson was hired to take what was given and progress the story to an already predetermined conclusion, but he was given an awful lot of leash. We suddenly have a half dozen more new characters, and new and unrelated story lines, and a very risky thesis underpinning the film in the Star Wars universe--that suddenly after 8 films that a Jedi just isn't that big a deal.

So yeah, it's safe to say that while the movie looked terrific in terms of its cinematography, the reception by fans was not what they wanted, as much as you can be disappointed in the buzz from a movie that makes $1.3 billion dollars at the box office.

So here we are, and I think Disney knows they are a little boxed in on this one. Johnson left a mess of untied ends but no strong thread for writers of the final picture to pull upon. It felt more like a standalone film in it's lack of development of the narrative of the trilogy than the critical chapter in a well planned saga.

I have no idea how it plays out. But like some others I will be glad to end it. The Mandalorian has given me a new hope that Disney can still do right telling stories in this world and it's big enough to do so much more.

 

[Fitzy]

Spoiler free review. Sounds like if you liked TLJ, you'll probably hate RoS. If you hated TLJ, you'll probably like RoS.

 

[Cybyassociation]

The reviews I've seen are...not great. Not looking into spoilers this time around, but I'm still very excited for tomorrow night.