R.I.P. Pontiac

[dmclone]

The same can be said of plenty of imports too though. I dont think its entirely fair to single out GM and in particular the cobalt as the only car like that.

I agree that some imports are hit and miss but it's pretty well known that GM has been behind in nearly every car they have made for the last 20 years when it comes to interior quality. I think powertrain wise they have been pretty decent overall.

I think when it comes to interior quality I would say Audi/VW, Lexus, and Honda/Acura are near the top.

I've owned 2 Nissans in the past 5 years and I would say they are not very good interiors overall but I admit it and can live with some negatives.

Some things are not subjective. I try to make it to the Chicago auto show every year and you can see by day 3 of the auto show that GM uses cheap leather in all of their cars. By the end of the 2nd week the interiors of all the GM vehicles has major spider webbing .

 

[Ames]

It has a TINY gas tank (8 or 9 gallons I think) and gets average mileage, so you're always filling it up. It's small inside, but then again it's a compact car. It doesn't handle horribly. It doesn't have much power, though.

I had a Geo in the 90's. This pretty much describes it. In some weird way I miss it. No AC or cruise control was harsh. The mileage was amazing though.

 

[Cyclonick182]

I agree that some imports are hit and miss but it's pretty well known that GM has been behind in nearly every car they have made for the last 20 years when it comes to interior quality. I think powertrain wise they have been pretty decent overall.

I think when it comes to interior quality I would say Audi/VW, Lexus, and Honda/Acura are near the top.

I've owned 2 Nissans in the past 5 years and I would say they are not very good interiors overall but I admit it and can live with some negatives.

Some things are not subjective. I try to make it to the Chicago auto show every year and you can see by day 3 of the auto show that GM uses cheap leather in all of their cars. By the end of the 2nd week the interiors of all the GM vehicles has major spider webbing .

Clearly none will be perfect, but again I do think your going to find a few issues with interiors no matter who the maker is.

 

[jumbopackage]

Having lived out of the state and out of country, I find Iowans fairly in touch with reality. You find backward people all over the world. Iowa doesn't have a monopoly on that. Lord I've been places in Florida and Chicago where people can bairly speak the English language correctly and the've been raised in the USA.

Perhaps we should follow California lead and drive all Japanese. They obviously know how to do things right out there.

I think they are in touch with their reality, but that reality isn't necessarily in touch with where the rest of the country is at. Sometimes that's good, and sometimes it's not. It's hard to be in touch with the issues facing major urban cities when you don't have any in your state, or even within an hour or two drive for most people in it.

Hey, we eventually followed their lead on a lot of automotive issues nationwide. That's where Toyotas were first sold in the states as well.

Sounds like a definition of a Toyota to me...

Yeah, I'd say it's somewhat Toyota-esque to me, just with a worse interior.

 

[isunorth]

Toyota is losing money. The car market it bad. I don't see what that has to do with making good cars though. I can't think of any product I buy where I go check stock prices to decide which one to buy.

GM and Ford are making cars just as good as Toyota and Honda.

The car market doesn't make it any better, but GM and Ford have been doing this for years.

GM lost over $38 billion last year and Ford lost nearly $3 billion.

As for others in the car industry in this "bad car market", VW put up a $5 billion+ profit, Toyota (who you stated also lost money) $15 billion, Daimler $5 billion, Honda $5 billion, BMW $4 billion, and Nissan $4 billion.

Nice try.

I don't care what they make, if they can't function as a company then they're not "catching up" to anything. They're not building cars for a hobby...they're running a business and they suck at it. It's not sustainable and they only way they're staying alive is for all of us to pour money into a failing, pathetic company.

But you go ahead and keep being a "Made-in-America" apologist...

 

[dmclone]

Whatever you say. I wouldnt be as much of an *** about this if I hadnt JUST bought my car a few weeks ago and researched the turbo vehicles in that market. They arent in the range of the EVO, but they arent that cheap either.

You just bought a new SRT4? I thought they stopped making those about 3 years ago? I'm assuming you bought used and got a hell of a deal. They are lighting fast cars.

If I was buying a turbo car at this point I think I'd be looking at the Mazdaspeed 3.

I'm shouldn't be criticizing anything. I'm the by that bought the $500 Pontiac Fiero

 

[Ames]

I agree that some imports are hit and miss but it's pretty well known that GM has been behind in nearly every car they have made for the last 20 years when it comes to interior quality. I think powertrain wise they have been pretty decent overall.

GM has the best powertrains. That's the main reason I tend to buy GM. Have you been in a new CTS? It's a nice interior. The Malibu is good also.

I think GM pays the unions by cutting on the interior. They have to cut something somewhere to pay all that overhead. GM needs to go bankrupt to get back on the same even playing field with Toyota/Honda.

 

[Bobber]

The car market doesn't make it any better, but GM and Ford have been doing this for years.

GM lost over $38 billion last year and Ford lost nearly $3 billion.

As for others in the car industry in this "bad car market", VW put up a $5 billion+ profit, Toyota (who you stated also lost money) $15 billion, Daimler $5 billion, Honda $5 billion, BMW $4 billion, and Nissan $4 billion.

Nice try.

I don't care what they make, if they can't function as a company then they're not "catching up" to anything. They're not building cars for a hobby...they're running a business and they suck at it. It's not sustainable and they only way they're staying alive is for all of us to pour money into a failing, pathetic company.

But you go ahead and keep being a "Made-in-America" apologist...

I can agree with you on that. Their business model is poor. They need to decrease their costs(to compete with the Japanese) and sell their products at a great price(which almost all their competiors do).

 

[Dave19642006]

What ever happened to all the Shelby's? They are awesome cars, fast sleek, and sexy as a mo-fo

 

[Cyclonick182]

You just bought a new SRT4? I thought they stopped making those about 3 years ago? I'm assuming you bought used and got a hell of a deal. They are lighting fast cars.

If I was buying a turbo car at this point I think I'd be looking at the Mazdaspeed 3.

I'm shouldn't be criticizing anything. I'm the by that bought the $500 Pontiac Fiero

Nah, I was talking from the used car market as thats what I bought(03 Evo VIII), SRT-4s Id put right there with the Cobalt SS in terms of used car price. Very middle of the pack for a turbo car.

 

[Ames]

As for others in the car industry in this "bad car market", VW put up a $5 billion+ profit, Toyota (who you stated also lost money) $15 billion, Daimler $5 billion, Honda $5 billion, BMW $4 billion, and Nissan $4 billion.

Nice try.

I don't care what they make, if they can't function as a company then they're not "catching up" to anything. They're not building cars for a hobby...they're running a business and they suck at it. It's not sustainable and they only way they're staying alive is for all of us to pour money into a failing, pathetic company.

Toyota lost almost 2 billion in Q1 THIS YEAR. Ford lost less money. I guess Ford caught up and passed Toyota. Let's all go buy Fords.

Nice try.

 

[jumbopackage]

GM has the best powertrains. That's the main reason I tend to buy GM. Have you been in a new CTS? It's a nice interior. The Malibu is good also.

I think GM pays the unions by cutting on the interior. They have to cut something somewhere to pay all that overhead. GM needs to go bankrupt to get back on the same even playing field with Toyota/Honda.

I agree. I think GM realized that they simply couldn't continue to take it in the shorts reliability-wise. People can live with a car that gets them from point A to point B, regardless of how awful the interior is.

They focused their efforts on decent powertrains that didn't crap themselves, and skimped on the rest of the car in areas where they could - material quality and quantity.

The Big 3's real issue is the union overhead and legacy costs. Their current cost of labor for the guys they currently employ isn't awful, but there is so much baggage that goes along with it for the guys they USED to employ, they are just simply fighting with one hand tied behind their backs.

The other issue is having the flexibility to change. If they can find some new way to automate a process that increases quality and consistency, but costs a few people jobs, or if they can find a way to get the same quality and consistency from a third party supplier, they need to be able to do that. I don't know how much flexibility they currently have, but things like the jobs bank tells me that there is limited utility in them doing things along those lines.

 

[dmclone]

GM has the best powertrains. That's the main reason I tend to buy GM. Have you been in a new CTS? It's a nice interior. The Malibu is good also.

I think GM pays the unions by cutting on the interior. They have to cut something somewhere to pay all that overhead. GM needs to go bankrupt to get back on the same even playing field with Toyota/Honda.

Yeah, I've been really impressed with the malibu overall. I think it looks a lot better than any of it's competetiors and it's interior seems pretty nice.


I agree that GM is at a disadvantage with it's big pensions and union wages but I think people will pay for a premium product. If this wasn't the case you would see KIA #1 in sales. Another example is BMW. I like BMW's but I think they are usually over priced by about 20% but they can do it because they have a good reputation.

I think GM just needs to get down to about 15-20 models and they all need to be near the top of their class. I think Chrysler is by far in the worst spot. At least with GM I can name 5-10 vehicles I would own (Vette, G8, Malibu, Camaro, trucks, and some SUV's) but I can't name one Chrysler that I would want to own at this point. Maybe the latest Ram?

 

[Dave19642006]

It comes to this in the end, quantity over quality

 

[Cyclonick182]

Maybe the latest Ram?

Viper? Actually Im not even sure if they make the Viper anymore.

 

[Ames]

I can agree with you on that. Their business model is poor. They need to decrease their costs(to compete with the Japanese) and sell their products at a great price(which almost all their competiors do).

The whole industry is hurting; not just GM. The only thing GM needs to catch up on is the costs of the unions. Toyota doesn't have those same kinds of costs at their US plants. Beyond that it's the industry as a whole.

Toyota is going to cut production by 50%. That's not a sign of them making crap cars. The industry sucks.

Don't think Japan has never given them money. That's not a US government only concept. Japan paid for the Prius development. When GM was forward thinking with the EV1 they lost a billion dollars.

 

[alarson]

Yeah, I've been really impressed with the malibu overall. I think it looks a lot better than any of it's competetiors and it's interior seems pretty nice.


I agree that GM is at a disadvantage with it's big pensions and union wages but I think people will pay for a premium product. If this wasn't the case you would see KIA #1 in sales. Another example is BMW. I like BMW's but I think they are usually over priced by about 20% but they can do it because they have a good reputation.

problem is, if they went to a high quality bmw model, their costs would be more than BMWs and theyd lose the value factor. Theyd get destroyed by bmw.

 

[dmclone]

Nah, I was talking from the used car market as thats what I bought(03 Evo VIII), SRT-4s Id put right there with the Cobalt SS in terms of used car price. Very middle of the pack for a turbo car.

Nice choice. I'd probably would have bought an EVO or Sti a few years ago but my wife thinks I'd look like an idiot being a 38 year old with a 3 foot wing and a hole in the hood

 

[isunorth]

Toyota lost almost 2 billion in Q1 THIS YEAR. Ford lost less money. I guess Ford caught up and passed Toyota. Let's all go buy Fords.

Nice try.

Let's talk about the last 4 years. Ford has lost about $12 billion dollars. GM around $50 billion. Toyota has posted profits of around $50 billion in that time. Nice try.

If you want to talk about 1 quarter, go ahead. Toyota is clearly the better-managed company and has the brighter future. Even better, my children and grand children won't still be paying to keep Toyota in business.

 

[jumbopackage]

It comes to this in the end, quantity over quality

Well that's been part of GM's problem, hasn't it?

They sold a vast quantity of cars that were low quality in the past.
Someone else came along with a car that they could build with better quality for the same price, and has now beat GM at the quantity game. GM's past is haunting it's present. They went from being the Wal-Mart of the car world to the Big Lots of the car world, and now it's taking them time to get back to being Wal-Mart.

Meanwhile Target has kicked all of their *****

They made their bed, and now they are lying in it (and you and I are paying for their mistakes).