NBA: ***Official NBA Draft and Offseason Thread***
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For the most part, yeah. The Nuggets made out pretty well with the Melo trade, but that was six years ago and it doesn't really count because the Knicks can't get anything right.
Agreed, and they aren't trading KAT so there's no way they can land Irving without including Wiggins.
Unless they could get another team involved. I don't think it happens though. Also don't think he gets traded right away. I bet this thing plays out for awhile.
Just a handful, why?
And I actually went to two T'Wolves games last year if that counts for anything.
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KAT and Butler both can score. If you trade for Kyrie what was the point of signing Teauge ?
Idk, you are very anti-Wiggins being an elite (not best choice of words, rather Worth-the-New-Max-Deal) player and I was curious as to what your sample size has been that lead you to that thought. I watched about every game I could last year and I think Wigs is definitely worth the money, not only because of what he can do on the court, but because of the core group that he and KAT has started, and it all started with Wiggins. The Lavine trade was hard for KAT and Wigs because they loved playing with Zack and wanted to build that team together. If you were to then turn around and trade a 2nd of the 3 pieces within your first off-season in the organization, you are going to lose your last pieces' (KAT) trust and loyalty. Some may call BS on that, but I think KAT loves Minnesota and he loved the situation he came into as the "young, up-and-coming team" and if he was the only part of that by year 3, even with some well established guys in the league, he would feel blind-sided by it.
Watching the wolves last year it was clear who played what role, and Wiggins was the wild card as he could knock down a 3 (earlier in the season more-so) he could slash through the lane and dunk on a center, or he could dish it off to a player with a more open shot. Does he still have some of that "KU Wiggins" in him, sure, he is still 22 and plays a bit OC at times, but that is because he knows what he Can do.
I was skeptical of Wiggins coming out of college, even before I knew he was coming to Minnesota mostly because of the way he played at Kansas. But he has surpassed my expectations as an all-around ball player (D can use some work, but he has the intangibles and if anyone can get it out of him, it's Thibs), and even more so as a teammate. I always thought he was a cocky kid who didn't say much to the media, but he just doesn't say much at all. All the guys he plays with seem to like him and his game, and only expect more from him. He had reduced minutes from his ROTY season and had more scoring production, and about the same rebounding and assist. My, maybe biased, opinion is that will continue as he and Towns grow together, add that with Jimmy taking some attention off him and Teague being able to get him the ball in good spots (Ricky did it well) his efficiency will go up.
I am biased, but I've also watched a ton of his game, and think it is worth giving him the Max money to. And that is as much to make him happy, as it is to make sure we define our path going forward with out main pieces.
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He's not an elite player at this point, he hasn't even made an All-Star team, let alone an All-NBA team, nor has he even been remotely close to making an All-NBA team. I don't think this is even debatable. You can say he has the potential to be one, and that would be fair, but as he is today, he's not.
I don't know what you're expectations are for an "all-around" player but they must be extremely low. Wiggins is below average, way below in some areas like defense, in everything but scoring. He can score, scoring 22 points at his age is not nothing. No one is saying he isn't an NBA player, but is he a max player is the question.
Minnesota fell ass backwards into a nice young core, but they didn't take as big of a step forward as most people expected them to last year. The Butler trade was a great move, I think the moves since then have been questionable. Minnesota should be a playoff team this year and for at least the next two with Butler there, but they're also pretty much locked into this group of guys once they max out Wiggins. If he develops into a two way All-NBA type wing, then you're in great shape. If he stalls out or doesn't improve defensively, then you might be locked into a second round type of team. Which is still a hell of a lot better than where Minnesota has been.
I don't think it's a no brainer to trade for Kyrie either. He's also a bad defender, you're giving up size, it would create a really unbalanced roster and I'm not sure I would trust Thibs to make the rest of the moves needed to correct that. But you're getting a guy who can score a ton at the highest level of NBA competition, you have three legit at least All-Star level players to build around and you have more financial flexibility to fill out the roster over the next two years.
I think your expectations of an all around basketball player are very High. Kyrie is WAY more of a celebrity than Wigs, and that is about it. All Star games are popularity contests. Kyrie has only made one All-NBA team, and that was 3rd team.
At 22 (his 3rd team All NBA year) Kyrie was averaging -
21.7 pts 3.2 rebs 5.2 ast
Wiggins at 21 (last year) -
23.6 4.0 rebs 2.3 ast
I would say those stats are pretty comparable and somewhat "remotely close to making and All-NBA team"
He has a better all around game than you give him credit, his defense does need some work, but so does Karl-Anthony Towns' and pretty much every young player that comes into the league as a scorer.
Tough to say. If J-Crossover is playing player-coach out there, it'd be hard to bet against the Pups
I agree that All-NBA teams are a much better way to measure a player's success than All-star teams. Wiggins hasn't gotten a single vote for an All-NBA team, he's not close to making one. Kyrie made one at 22 as you pointed out and has gotten votes each year.
What part of his all around game is good? He's terrible defensively, he's a poor rebounder, he has a low assist rate for a wing. What am I missing there?
He's a number one pick up for a max deal, I'm going to judge him by a little more than just is he an NBA starter.
It is clear that you and I are not going to agree on this discussion, even though your reason for Kyrie being more impressive is that he made an All-NBA team the season that Wiggins is going into this year, and has gotten votes since. What is saying that Wiggins isn't going to get that nod this year, and get votes every year after that?
Were you against the Cavs signing Kyrie to a max deal back in 2014 when he had no All-NBA team votes and had about as an efficient first 3 years as Wiggins?
Wiggins ORating was a 105 average through first 3 seasons, and DRating of 114.
Kyrie had an average ORating of 108 after 3 seasons, and a DRating of 110. Seem pretty comparable to me.
Kyrie did have seven All NBA votes in the 2014 season. You seem to think Wiggins is just on the outside of the All-NBA level, he's not. He's not real close. He was 469th in the league in VORP this past year (Towns was 12th, Butler 5th Irving 30th). He's 52nd among shooting guards in Real Plus Minus (Irving was 12th at pg, Butler 1st at sg and Towns 13th at C).
One thing you point that Irving had a poor DRating after three seasons, and he's still bad defense. That's generally true, if you've been a terrible defender for three years, the odds of you becoming a good defender are very small. So Wiggins is going to need to make a big jump on the offensive end to overcome his defensive efficiencies. Kyrie's ORtg/DRtg his first thre years were 108.5/109.7, 108.5/109.8, 108.9/108.0, WIggins have been 102.5/113, 105.6/112.8, 106.7/114.7, that is a pretty significant difference.
Pretty good, but what about the bench? You gotta have role players that can score.
The warriors don't have anyone to guard KAT. I think that's just as good as the warriors big 4
Golden St wins pretty easily. Can't hide Wiggins and Kyrie on defense, plus it would be tough for KAT to defend when the Warriors go small. Plus Golden St has even better depth this year than last and of course they've got another year of familiarity with Durant on the team. Golden St is literally the best team ever assembled so unless you can put two other elite wings with LeBron on a team with quality depth as well, it's going to be tough for any team to beat them.
It's not exactly the same situation. When Kyrie signed his extension the Cavs weren't exactly ascending. They had been lost in the woods since Lebron left, and they didn't have any other established players or up and comers coming due for a big contract. They didn't even know for sure they had Lebron coming back at that point. So they could afford to take the risk and sign Kyrie long term. Plus Gilbert had already been burned once by Lebron signing a three year deal instead of the long term max, and he didn't want that to happen again.
Different spot for the Wolves as a young and ascending team. You know KAT is going to get the max contract extension. And in two years, Jimmy Butler will be 29 and still in his prime, so he'll likely get a max deal. So you'll have three guys tying up about 80% of your cap space. Which is great assuming that Wiggins makes the leap and becomes an elite two way player. But he's not there yet, and there's no guarantee he'll get there. Virtually every stat and advanced metric out there backs that up as long as you're not strictly looking at PPG. And if he doesn't make the leap then you have an Oladipo-like albatross of a contract that restricts the team from building a contender around KAT and Butler.
So why jump now? Let Wiggins play another year on his current deal, and see if he can clean up the weaknesses in his game. He's a restricted free agent, so if he does improve then all they have to do is match whatever offers come in or sign him to the max then. I guess I'm not as concerned about showing faith or loyalty here. I'd be more concerned with the long term flexibility. And by signing Wiggins to the max now, they're giving that up by paying for a Big 3 that might only end up a Big 2.
I just want to see more from Wiggins than using his superior athleticism to get buckets. I want to see better rebounding, better court awareness, better defense, better shot selection, all that stuff. Yeah, it's a high standard but if they're giving out a max deal then that's the least of what they should expect from him.
