MLB: ***Official 2019 St. Louis Cardinals Season Thread***

[throwittoblythe]

They just have some terrible contracts weighing them down. The Carpenter contract extension after the Goldschmidt trade was a real head scratcher for me. That ties up a lot of money in an aging 1B playing 3rd with a bad shoulder who's having a harder time staying on the field all the time. I love Carp but I thought he'd make some good trade bait for a young arm from an AL team looking for 1B/DH help in the offseason.

I'm not sure Fowler can come around to make his contract palatable. I hope he can finish strong enough that maybe we can get somebody to pay half the remaining portion after this year...assuming you can get him to waive the no trade. We've got to get Arozarena up for an extended look at some point...maybe at the expense of Bader in the short run.

I'd gladly go to sell mode this year to back build some talent but I'm not sure we have the pieces that are going to return any high level prospects.

I'd prefer to go to sell mode as well. As I've said before, even if they sneak into the playoffs, this team hasn't shown me anything that indicates it could get beyond the first round. They're just bad.

The problem, as you stated, is that they have almost no one left to trade. You want to hang onto the few players who are having moderately decent years (DeJong, Goldy, Flaherty, etc). You have aging players with albatross contracts (Carp, Fowler) and then young talent that is struggling (Wong, Bader). I could really only see them trading J. Martinez to the AL, but that has been rumored for 2 or 3 years now and no movement.

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

The problem with trading Carlos right now is you are not going to get much in return. The team that takes him would have to be thinking a starter for next year, and only in the pen for this year. Plus he has not been very good. Last night a single, then a 2 run homer, and then a couple more hits.
I think it was Smoltz that said, with his arm, he should be a 20 game winner, but his head gets into the way.

 

[heitclone]

The problem with trading Carlos right now is you are not going to get much in return. The team that takes him would have to be thinking a starter for next year, and only in the pen for this year. Plus he has not been very good. Last night a single, then a 2 run homer, and then a couple more hits.
I think it was Smoltz that said, with his arm, he should be a 20 game winner, but his head gets into the way.

I like Carlos but I swear you can tell from his first pitch how his night will go, he's either in to it or he's not. When he's not, he's a crapshoot.

 

[throwittoblythe]

I like Carlos but I swear you can tell from his first pitch how his night will go, he's either in to it or he's not. When he's not, he's a crapshoot.

He's been that way his whole career. I remember when he first broke into the league and the challenge with him was controlling his emotions. They always tried to balance the fire with focus. I remember days during his first appearances where he would get a bad call and totally fall apart because he was so pissed. He would just start throwing as hard as he could with no regard for pitch selection or location.

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

Like the old saying "a million dollar arm and a .10 cent head." Carlos is no longer young or inexperienced. Its time for him to step up and dominate or we need to get rid of him.

 

[ca4cy]

Ozuna
J. Martinez
C. Martinez

Those 3 could bring back some pieces. I agree, need to go into sell mode to try to get some pieces back.

Ozuna as a slugger with an expiring contract coming off a hand injury has to give suitors cause for concern. I'm sure somebody would take him off our hands but the return is questionable for me.

Jose? Agree. I think we could actually get something decent in return there.

CMart? Still a ton of potential and a reasonable contract but nights like last night don't help our negotiations.

I'm not sure we'll sell anyway so it's probably a moot point.

 

[throwittoblythe]

Ozuna as a slugger with an expiring contract coming off a hand injury has to give suitors cause for concern. I'm sure somebody would take him off our hands but the return is questionable for me.

Jose? Agree. I think we could actually get something decent in return there.

CMart? Still a ton of potential and a reasonable contract but nights like last night don't help our negotiations.

I'm not sure we'll sell anyway so it's probably a moot point.

Trading CMart at this point would be selling at the lowest point of value. Two years ago, he would've brought a haul of prospects. Now, he's a guy whose been injured on and off the last two years and has been ineffective when on the mound. You'd be asking someone to take a chance on his remaining potential, which means they would offer less to take him.

 

[TheHelgo]

My take: Trade Ozuna and J Martinez, but only if you can get decent/good return for them. Ozuna may be worth moving even if the return is moderate since it is a contract year, and I do not see the Cardinals giving him a big contract. I like O'Neill in the outfield on more of a regular basis anyway.

Also, I am certainly NOT thinking sell mode, but rather selling Ozuna and maybe Martinez, but then looking to BUY relief pitching and maybe even a starter if the price is right. The Cards are doing just fine since the break, and I do not subscribe to the argument that this team 'just doesn't look like they can beat anyone in the playoffs'. All we have to do is look at the Blues to see what can happen when a team gets hot. Or, if that argument doesn't work, the Cardinals of 2011 would be another great example.

 

[throwittoblythe]

My take: Trade Ozuna and J Martinez, but only if you can get decent/good return for them. Ozuna may be worth moving even if the return is moderate since it is a contract year, and I do not see the Cardinals giving him a big contract. I like O'Neill in the outfield on more of a regular basis anyway.

Also, I am certainly NOT thinking sell mode, but rather selling Ozuna and maybe Martinez, but then looking to BUY relief pitching and maybe even a starter if the price is right. The Cards are doing just fine since the break, and I do not subscribe to the argument that this team 'just doesn't look like they can beat anyone in the playoffs'. All we have to do is look at the Blues to see what can happen when a team gets hot. Or, if that argument doesn't work, the Cardinals of 2011 would be another great example.

I think the Cards have a decent shot at signing Ozuna. He's talked a lot this year about how much he loves St. Louis. He also fired Boras as his agent, right? So, there seems to be a good chance there. Plus, he's only 28 so he's got some prime years left. I'd be willing to give him a decent deal, but no longer than 3-5 years.

And you're right, this team does have the pieces there to win now if they can put it together. And maybe they are. There's always a glimmer of hope. Like the slam by Goldy last night...I'm HOPING that gives him some confidence to go on a tear. Gotta prove it first, though.

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

If you look at the standings we are 1.5 games behind the scurbs in the division and .5 game behind Washington in the 2nd spot in the wildcard standing. We are a half game up on the crew and Phillies.

Mo really have no choice but to try and go for it, make a few minor trades, get some depth for the bullpen and hope that Carp and the other struggling hitters can pick it up in the 2nd half.

At the end of the season at least give Ozuna the qualify offer to get the draft pick, see if he willing to come back on a 3 to 4 year deal. He is making 12.25 now, maybe 3 at 40 million/ 4 at 53 million. If not let him walk.

Cmart move him back into the rotation next year and hope, we lose Waino at the end of the year. Trade Jose or release Fowler, hell maybe both. I would also shop Wong during the off season, not give him away, but if you could get some young talent back, move him. We need more offensive from that position.

 

[matclone]

I can't agree with the eagerness to sell. The ones I would move, if moveable, would be the veterans (Carpenter, Fowler). Most of the young guys are playing great. I think Edman has been the best lead off hitter we've had all year. It's been nothing but a hole, and he's provided some spark and some speed. I like when Munoz and J. Martinez are in the lineup. Wong and DeJong are solid up the middle. Goldy is a hitter, as is Ozuna, and Jose.

Also, I would sell Carlos Martinez short. The last two games he got into some trouble (including the one in Cincinnati where I thought he was going to pass out) but he pulled through when it counted. I'm a lot more confident with him at the back of the bullpen than I was with Hicks.

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

I can't agree with the eagerness to sell. The ones I would move, if moveable, would be the veterans (Carpenter, Fowler). Most of the young guys are playing great. I think Edman has been the best lead off hitter we've had all year. It's been nothing but a hole, and he's provided some spark and some speed. I like when Munoz and J. Martinez are in the lineup. Wong and DeJong are solid up the middle. Goldy is a hitter, as is Ozuna, and Jose.

Also, I would sell Carlos Martinez short. The last two games he got into some trouble (including the one in Cincinnati where I thought he was going to pass out) but he pulled through when it counted. I'm a lot more confident with him at the back of the bullpen than I was with Hicks.

We are not going to get crap for Fowler, that is sunk money, you will be picking up a lot of Carps salary also. He might get better, he might not. He needs to learn, they shift, you bunt, and keep bunting until they stop the shift. But he refuses to do it.
Keep CMart, we will get nothing for him and he may figure it out next year, if not, trade him then.

 

[throwittoblythe]

I can't agree with the eagerness to sell. The ones I would move, if moveable, would be the veterans (Carpenter, Fowler). Most of the young guys are playing great. I think Edman has been the best lead off hitter we've had all year. It's been nothing but a hole, and he's provided some spark and some speed. I like when Munoz and J. Martinez are in the lineup. Wong and DeJong are solid up the middle. Goldy is a hitter, as is Ozuna, and Jose.

Also, I would sell Carlos Martinez short. The last two games he got into some trouble (including the one in Cincinnati where I thought he was going to pass out) but he pulled through when it counted. I'm a lot more confident with him at the back of the bullpen than I was with Hicks.

J Martinez and Munoz are both replacement level players. Munoz has a WAR of 0.1 while Martinez is actually -0.2. JMarts defense is so bad it completely negates his offensive production. Wong is much better at 2.1 WAR because his offense isn’t as bad as JMarts defense.

 

[matclone]

J Martinez and Munoz are both replacement level players. Munoz has a WAR of 0.1 while Martinez is actually -0.2. JMarts defense is so bad it completely negates his offensive production. Wong is much better at 2.1 WAR because his offense isn’t as bad as JMarts defense.

I have no idea what WAR means (beyond the acronym), or for that matter what replacement level player means. I do understand batting average, slugging and on-base percentage. Munoz is hitting around .300. Martinez is a career .300 hitter and has demonstrated to me that he is a major league hitter (a commodity in short supply). I wonder if his throwing out the game-tying runner at the plate last night had any effect on his WAR.

 

[matclone]

Cards are 1.0 game out of first pending outcome of Cub's game. Brewers are getting soaked by the Reds.

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

I have no idea what WAR means (beyond the acronym), or for that matter what replacement level player means. I do understand batting average, slugging and on-base percentage. Munoz is hitting around .300. Martinez is a career .300 hitter and has demonstrated to me that he is a major league hitter (a commodity in short supply). I wonder if his throwing out the game-tying runner at the plate last night had any effect on his WAR.

I would like to see Munoz play every day and see what he can do. He might be the replacement of either Carp of Wong.

 

[matclone]

Wong is on a tear--hitting something like .335 this month, and his defense is the best in the business. I would like to see Munoz play anywhere.

 

[throwittoblythe]

I have no idea what WAR means (beyond the acronym), or for that matter what replacement level player means. I do understand batting average, slugging and on-base percentage. Munoz is hitting around .300. Martinez is a career .300 hitter and has demonstrated to me that he is a major league hitter (a commodity in short supply). I wonder if his throwing out the game-tying runner at the plate last night had any effect on his WAR.

The point of WAR is to take the emotions out of it. JMart made a game saving play last night. It was awesome. So I see that and think “see, his defense isn’t so bad.” The stats don’t lie though, his defense is atrocious. He doesn’t necessarily make a ton of errors but he is constantly slow to get the ball into the infield, misses the cutoff man, and/or throws to the wrong base or just doesn’t throw guys out very often.

What the WAR star is saying is that you could replace him with literally any other right fielder in the game and you’d have a better than 50% chance of getting a better overall player.

My point in all this is: a lot of people say we have to keep him because he’s such a good hitter and that his offense is worth the bad defense. What the stats say is that his poor defense completely negates any offensive positives he provides. So it’s really not worth keeping him around just for his offense. He really belongs in the AL as a DH.

 

[cyfanatic13]

No one wants to win the central

 

[matclone]

The point of WAR is to take the emotions out of it. JMart made a game saving play last night. It was awesome. So I see that and think “see, his defense isn’t so bad.” The stats don’t lie though, his defense is atrocious. He doesn’t necessarily make a ton of errors but he is constantly slow to get the ball into the infield, misses the cutoff man, and/or throws to the wrong base or just doesn’t throw guys out very often.

What the WAR star is saying is that you could replace him with literally any other right fielder in the game and you’d have a better than 50% chance of getting a better overall player.

My point in all this is: a lot of people say we have to keep him because he’s such a good hitter and that his offense is worth the bad defense. What the stats say is that his poor defense completely negates any offensive positives he provides. So it’s really not worth keeping him around just for his offense. He really belongs in the AL as a DH.

I don't dispute that Martinez is on the bottom-rung of right field defenders, but I question the premise that this outweighs his batting prowess. I watched several years of Matt Holliday in left field making bad plays, yet he was in the line-up every day. Why? Because he could hit.