Men's basketball expectations vs. fan longevity, a conversation

[enisthemenace]

Started out with Hornacek and Stevens. Too bad there wasn't a 3 point line then! Rotating student seats, sitting 2 rows back from the Iowa bench.

It's been great to watch the progression of ISU basketball through the years.

Sorry to derail, but rotations seats were awesome. Our best tickets were the seats you describe but against Texas during the 99-00 season. Gained a lot of respect for Rick Barnes that day. We were hammering him all game. He turned to us late when it was clear we were going to win and, with a smile on his face, he said directly to us “I can’t wait to play you guys again.” We immediately ripped into him, laughing the whole time. He goes on to say “I didn’t say I wanted to play you here”.

Got a kick out of that. Again, sorry to derail, but sometimes you can’t control a little reminiscence.

 

[dirtfarmer]

This a great conversation, but stats only tell half the story. Johnny Orr was successful because the fans had fun and he tried to make sure the team at least won in front of the home crowd. Fred was really the same, his teams were a lot of fun to watch and he put butts in the seats and made money for ISU. Fred and Johnny were as much showmen as coaches.


Fast forward to Prohm, I don't doubt that he is one of the better coaches we have had. However he needs to work on his teams showmanship. Most people on forums like this are purest that care about the sport in it's purest form, that is they like very technically correct Bball. Prohm excels at this.

D1 mens basketball and football is as much or more about the entertainment value than anything else. People show up for exciting games. If we don't start landing some players that can make big plays(Think Georges) for the highlight reel, we will slide backward toward being forgotten regardless of the win-loss stat.

 

[Cat Stevens]

My expectation from a head coach in any sport is to leave it better than you found it. Born in '92. Probably became an aware fan around the Morgan/Mcdermott era.

Morgan era (C rating):
Exciting brand of basketball. Had some talented players on the roster with Stinson/Blalock/Clark running the full court press. Middle of the pack in conference and NCAA tourney every other year was roughly the expectation. Had it only been about basketball, he probably would've lasted longer.

Mcdermott era (F rating):
We sucked, plain and simple. Probably the worst program in Big 12 during his tenure.

Hoiberg era (A rating):
Hilton Magic is back, baby. Hoiberg took over my freshman year at ISU, while we did not win a lot of games that year... there was a lot of buzz surrounding "The best practice squad in the country" sitting in the front row of the student section. With Hoiberg inheriting probably the least talented roster in the conference and the 1-year sit out transfer rule, there really was no way to compete year one. Utilizing the transfer market (which had never been done to this magnitude before) to expedite the rebuilding process and make it to the NCAA tourney after only 1 year was truly nothing short of amazing. Please note he also recruited what is probably the best core of ISU players in history (Niang, Morris, Naz, Thomas, Ejim). Arguably, the 2nd best program in the Big 12 behind KU during his tenure. Probably underachieved in NCAA tourney although 2 of the losses were to eventual champs and would've knocked off UCONN if Niang didn't get injured. Unfortunately, Hoiberg left the season before he would've had his best team yet. One of the best offensive minds in college (this is why several NBA teams courted him so this is not debatable).

Prohm era (B rating):
To be honest, I thought Otz deserved this job from day one so already a little hesitant. Inherited a top 10 caliber team; talent, team chemistry, and experience were all there (these guys could've made it to the NCAA tourney coaching themselves). Very underwhelming first season saved by Big 12 tourney win. Got a lucky draw in NCAA tourney to get to Sweet 16 (not Prohm's fault how that played out). Good 2nd season with a somewhat disappointing NCAA tourney. 3rd year: Rebuilding year, obvious holes in the roster, injuries killed us, very promising young talent though. 4th year: Preseason expectation was to be happy if we made the NCAA tourney. That changed after the ***-whooping we gave KU. Arguably, had the most talented roster in the Big 12 and with KU being down this should've been a year we competed for the title. Very poor coaching and team chemistry led to our demise. Thought the year was saved with the Big 12 tourney title but was again castrated with a poor showing in the dance.
Prohm has shown to be an elite recruiter with a very good eye for hidden gems. However, he is not a good strategy guy. The issue I have is... how are we going to ever win the Big 12 if we finish 9-9 when the cards were aligned like they were this year.

That being said, I think Prohm has been successful enough to keep his job but at the same time there is another guy out there who is clearly superior. If all the politics and feelings were left aside (and assuming Fred was interested in coaching here for the long haul), bringing Hoiberg back instead of extending Prohm would've been in the best interest for the future of ISU basketball. Time will tell. Go State!

Dumb. And not true.

 

[Cat Stevens]

This a great conversation, but stats only tell half the story. Johnny Orr was successful because the fans had fun and he tried to make sure the team at least won in front of the home crowd. Fred was really the same, his teams were a lot of fun to watch and he put butts in the seats and made money for ISU. Fred and Johnny were as much showmen as coaches.


Fast forward to Prohm, I don't doubt that he is one of the better coaches we have had. However he needs to work on his teams showmanship. Most people on forums like this are purest that care about the sport in it's purest form, that is they like very technically correct Bball. Prohm excels at this.

D1 mens basketball and football is as much or more about the entertainment value than anything else. People show up for exciting games. If we don't start landing some players that can make big plays(Think Georges) for the highlight reel, we will slide backward toward being forgotten regardless of the win-loss stat.

What Johnny meant to Iowa State went far far far beyond wins and losses

 

[Cat Stevens]

This a great conversation, but stats only tell half the story. Johnny Orr was successful because the fans had fun and he tried to make sure the team at least won in front of the home crowd. Fred was really the same, his teams were a lot of fun to watch and he put butts in the seats and made money for ISU. Fred and Johnny were as much showmen as coaches.


Fast forward to Prohm, I don't doubt that he is one of the better coaches we have had. However he needs to work on his teams showmanship. Most people on forums like this are purest that care about the sport in it's purest form, that is they like very technically correct Bball. Prohm excels at this.

D1 mens basketball and football is as much or more about the entertainment value than anything else. People show up for exciting games. If we don't start landing some players that can make big plays(Think Georges) for the highlight reel, we will slide backward toward being forgotten regardless of the win-loss stat.

Also, Georges wasn’t THE guy until he was a junior. The first two years he had clyburn lucious etc. soph year he was a clear 3 behind Melvin and Deandre.

 

[bozclone]

I think the OP is on to something. I started attending games in the mid to late 70s as a kid. The teams were bad and the atmosphere at Hilton really sucked. It was less than half full. I became super passionate during college starting in 85. Johnny brought life to the program. His teams didn’t always win, but they were exciting. Our program now and the expectations are on a totally different level. I was at the game when we lost in the elite 8. I thought to myself that we missed out on a once in a lifetime opportunity. I knew it would be hard for ISU to ever get back there again. Our talent has really improved to where that seems more realistic.

 

[sheepplucker]

Stinson and blalocks freshman years... sat through every game of the the McDermott era... still found him more tolerable than prohms coaching style.

 

[Cydkar]

Stinson and blalocks freshman years... sat through every game of the the McDermott era... still found him more tolerable than prohms coaching style.

Wow. There would have been a parade for a 9-9 conference season with Greg. They were abysmal. Our 3 game Big 12 run was better than anything Greg had in his entire tenure. Unless the best player on the team transferring away is what floats your boat.

 

[madguy30]

Stinson and blalocks freshman years... sat through every game of the the McDermott era... still found him more tolerable than prohms coaching style.

Yeah disconnected players and losing every season. How do things get back to that?

Really really funny stuff here.

 

[Cat Stevens]

Yeah disconnected players and losing every season. How do things get back to that?

Really really funny stuff here.

You don’t actually expect him to be able to critically think, do you?

His trail is long, and it’s all takes just as intelligent as the one you responded to

 

[SCyclone]

Came to ISU in 1975, like @bozclone said, if Hilton was half full, that was a helluva crowd. I worked for the Daily and got to interview Trickey when he left. Nance was a fun guy, but not a good coach.

I really got into college BB during the Orr years.....Johnny brought his pedigree, of course, but he was also a showman. He gave the program national exposure, probably more than we deserved. And his influence in bringing Michigan talent here was crucial.

I remember a friend from Ames, who was very close to the program, telling me the day Eustachy left and Morgan was hired that the players felt like they'd been let out of jail. And they ran Morgan like a back-alley crap game. Not much accountability.

I also vividly remember the announcement of Hoiberg's hiring. I was excited, because of the connection, but also apprehensive because of Fred's lack of experience. He went on to prove that was not an issue, of course.

CSP came in under tough circumstances - following a beloved, hometown hero who had had great success, with great players used to a certain system and certain rules, and virtually no continuity owing to a lack of recruitment. To his credit, he gradually got the current roster to accept his ways and his style, and flourished.

He had some issues trying (desperately) to fill the void left in the roster. And when you start trying to recruit after all the top talent has already committed, it's never easy.

But his recruitment since has been exceptional (IMHO, anyway) and I see him growing as a coach. We could not ask for a finer person. He is carrying on the Cyclone basketball tradition in a fine manner.

 

[Hayes30]

Expectations on the program. Be in the Tournament year after year with a big Tournament run every now and again. Constantly be contending for a League Title. Be consistent on bringing in High end 4 Star Talent with some random years of fill in/roll players. Mainly what's been done at Iowa State since the Royce Year. Eventually I would love to have a few final 4s but thays gonna take awhile.

 

[Cyclonepride]

I got in by listening on the radio to Johnny's early teams. At that time, having a puncher's chance was enough (and you could tell that their competitiveness was increasing). Then we started getting to the tournament, and that was fantastic (hadn't been in how many decades?).

Our early seeds when I started watching were: 13, 7, 12, 10, 10. Obviously the Larry Eustachy teams were a revelation and a dream come true (and subsequently crushed). The last 8 years, with 7 appearances and seeds of 8, 10, 3, 3, 4, 5 and 6 have been the best consistent stretch since I've been a fan.

So I've pretty much spanned the last 35 or so years of Cyclone basketball, and I'm generally happy with getting to the tournament regularly, with a team talented enough to advance. It's still frustrating that we haven't broken through to more Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights (or beyond), so I get why younger people who didn't experience more of the lows would be more frustrated than me (though I do not get turning on the team, coaching staff and players at every sign of adversity (and **** those who do)).

 

[CyBobby]

What Johnny meant to Iowa State went far far far beyond wins and losses

I agree Cat Stevens.... I wholeheartedly AGREE....When Nick Neumann told me Johnny Orr was coming to ISU ...My response: You mean the Johnny Orr from Michigan?....I knew that if Johnny Orr came that ISU basketball would never be the same...….MBB will only grow and get better from here....and remember GO Cyclones

 

[Cydkar]

Came to ISU in 1975, like @bozclone said, if Hilton was half full, that was a helluva crowd. I worked for the Daily and got to interview Trickey when he left. Nance was a fun guy, but not a good coach.

I really got into college BB during the Orr years.....Johnny brought his pedigree, of course, but he was also a showman. He gave the program national exposure, probably more than we deserved. And his influence in bringing Michigan talent here was crucial.

I remember a friend from Ames, who was very close to the program, telling me the day Eustachy left and Morgan was hired that the players felt like they'd been let out of jail. And they ran Morgan like a back-alley crap game. Not much accountability.

I also vividly remember the announcement of Hoiberg's hiring. I was excited, because of the connection, but also apprehensive because of Fred's lack of experience. He went on to prove that was not an issue, of course.

CSP came in under tough circumstances - following a beloved, hometown hero who had had great success, with great players used to a certain system and certain rules, and virtually no continuity owing to a lack of recruitment. To his credit, he gradually got the current roster to accept his ways and his style, and flourished.

He had some issues trying (desperately) to fill the void left in the roster. And when you start trying to recruit after all the top talent has already committed, it's never easy.

But his recruitment since has been exceptional (IMHO, anyway) and I see him growing as a coach. We could not ask for a finer person. He is carrying on the Cyclone basketball tradition in a fine manner.

Dang. Good stuff.

 

[Rural]

Wow. There would have been a parade for a 9-9 conference season with Greg. They were abysmal. Our 3 game Big 12 run was better than anything Greg had in his entire tenure. Unless the best player on the team transferring away is what floats your boat.

On the good days.

 

[fatkid1974]

Some of my earliest memories are of Hornacek launching bombs against Michigan in the tourney in late 80's. Started scalping in front of Hilton with H.S. buddies (RIP Chief) at the end of Johnny's run. Remember sitting in the stands for Freds debut in a preseason game, got tired of all the little old ladies screaming "shoot it Freddy" by the end of it. I'm guessing those are the same people and their kids that overlook all the good things Prohm has done and keep screaming "bring Hoiberg back". The best thing that CSP does IMO is managing ego's. I remember when he got hired, McKay saying "we'll handle the offense, he can coach the defense". I don't think people realize how hard it had to be, and still is, to manage, discipline and coach the 'ME' generation. Especially following someone (Hoiberg) who ran a really loose ship. I'd be willing to bet that there are only 2-3 guys that would have been able to handle Tim or Larry as coaches on this team. As far as straight up game day prep and coaching go, Floyd was the best we've ever had.

 

[SCyclone]

Remembered another story about Cyclone MBB from long, long ago. I lived on Sheldon Avenue, just down the street from Westgate and across from Beyer. Played lots of pick-up BB games at Beyer, sometimes the football players would show up (Dexter Green), sometimes the basketball players would show up (Andrew Parker - could go up with a ball in each hand and dunk both of them. ).

One Sunday my roommate and I wandered over to State Gym (Beyer wasn't open for some reason) to shoot a little bit. Nance had the team there, playing full-court. I think it was just for fun, not real practicing.

So we stood and watched for awhile.....then a couple of players had to leave, and Nance hollers over at us. "Hey! You two! Get in here!" We looked at each other - WTF? Are you kidding? Is he talking to us?

And in we went. Holy ****, it was like getting sucked into the turbine of a jet engine. I never touched the ball once. My roomie, who was an exceptional shooter, tried a jump shot and it ended up getting swatted clear across the floor.

It was pretty fun, nonetheless. And Nance thanked us for filling in.

 

[Gunnerclone]

I'm sorry, this is the all time dumbest take of all dumb takes. I vividly remember a game in the McD era, I think we were playing Nebraska of all teams, we brought all the "top players of the last 100 years" back to the game, and we managed to score a whole 12 points in the first half in what was one of the most excruciating games I've ever witnessed. If you can possibly look back on the career of the worst coach in my lifetime at ISU's tenure, you've not been watching.

The worst part of the McD years was when Jeremiah Massey would just own us in Hilton.

 

[discydisc]

I grew up a Hawk fan, but went to school at Iowa State starting in 2002. My first weekend at ISU was the Seneca was in Florida State game, but I didn’t really become a cyclone fan until I started to go to basketball games that 2002-2003 season. The team wasn’t that good, but it was still an exciting team with Sullivan, Vroman, and Haluska.

I guess, in hindsight, I became a fan on the downslope. I suppose it makes sense I support Prohm.

This is pretty much me except 2004.