John Amaechi

[zdorr40]

So what gives people the right to treat gay people differently because of their personal choices? Constantly remind gay men it's not manly? Harass lesbian women for not liking what men have to offer?

At WHAT point did I ever say anything about having the right to treat ANYBODY differently???!!! I didn't. I believe all people should be treated with respect and dignity. I also believe homosexuality is immoral. Because you don't believe the same thing, you are now going to put words in my mouth?

Also, how in the hell can you equate what I just said with the treatment of slaves in the south?

I had several fraternity brothers who were/are gay. My wife used to work at a place with many gays and lesbians, whom I have spend a lot of time with. How dare you tell me that the reason I believe it's wrong is because it makes me feel unmanly or inadequate? I believe it's wrong because my God tells me it is.

 

[cycloneworld]

Doesn't zdorr have the right not to like the lifestyle choices of gay people just like ISUFan has the right to accept them 100%?

 

[ISUFan22]

At WHAT point did I ever say anything about having the right to treat ANYBODY differently???!!! I didn't. I believe all people should be treated with respect and dignity. I also believe homosexuality is immoral. Because you don't believe the same thing, you are now going to put words in my mouth?

Also, how in the hell can you equate what I just said with the treatment of slaves in the south?

I had several fraternity brothers who were/are gay. My wife used to work at a place with many gays and lesbians, whom I have spend a lot of time with. How dare you tell me that the reason I believe it's wrong is because it makes me feel unmanly or inadequate?

Ahh, you complain of me placing words in your mouth - yet you take all of my comments as being directed at you - as shown in the one you quotes and your response to it. Never did I say you treat gays differently. Not once did I say you felt inadequate or unmanly around gays. Often times these debates go awry because they turn personal rather than on what the actual issue is (the biggest reason I typically don't like political, religious or minority rights debates). It would be swell if this didn't go that way.

I am trying to speak to the issue here as a whole. The fact is, there is a very large number of people that persecute gays just like people persecute members of a different race. One group chooses to be gay and the other was born of a minority.

Yet both are treated differently and in a large number of cases - to extremes that cause some of the things mentioned in this thread.

 

[Erik4Cy]

Possibly. You've gotta admit, though. Why did he come out to the media at the same time he's selling a book? Obviously he's looking to bump sales a little bit.

I'm glad we're not trying to equate sexaul preference with race. You are correct, they're not the same. Of course, I'm going to take it a step further and call a spade a spade. Homosexual behavior is a choice. Notice I didn't say the feelings or the tendency is. I firmly believe John Amaechi is being deceived. I feel bad for him. I don't hate him, nor do I hate any group of people. Except Hawkeye fans. Anyhow, this is a debilitating lifestyle. The statistics are all over the place. Life expectancies for gay men are in the 40s. Depression rates are through the roof, as are suicide rates. This is horrible.

Call me whatever names you like (and I'm talking to this whole board, not just you, 22) but the Lord created us to do many things, but this isn't one of them.

...And now I'm counting down to the closure of this thread...

first off, i value your opinion, but I think u r looking at some things the wrong way...

-the book sales, yes, he is trying to sell some books of this, but who doesn't everyone does. that's the thing about being a writer.

-I really, really wish you wouldn't feel bad for him, that's the last thing any homosexual needs...you do not pity someone - you accept them for who they are. the problem is for some people it takes something drastic like a close friend or relative to come out for that to happen.

-Bcuz so little is known about ones psychology and thoughts at a very young age about it, i am not touching the subject of whether homosexuality is a choice made later in life or whether you are born that way.

-the part you said about a debilitating lifestyle? don't you think about the cause and effect at this juncture? you say its a bad lifestyle to choose bcuz its one where the life expectancies are low, depression rates high, suicide rates high, and that it's TERRIBLE? Don't you think it societies inability to accept this group of people that leads to this? if you were in a *hypothetical* minority group where people were heterosexual (which i am guessing you are) and the majority of the society looked at you as weird for liking someone of a different sex, or wanting to get married, and what if you saw heterosexuals being beaten and killed bcuz of this? don't you think this pressure on you being seen as less than human or something abnormal or wrong would make you suicidal or depressed?????

-The part about the Lord-man, you must have a different Lord than me...I am Christian and I believe in God, and I have read parts of the Bible and find time to study world religions in my freetime. I have also talked to many clergy who tell me that NOWHERE in the Bible does it say homosexuality is evil or wrong, like some would want you to think. There are just people in every religion who find ways to misconstrue things to say exactly what they want to say. I am using Islam as an example (NOT comparing it to this issue we are talking about) But most of the people following the Koran are not terrorists and preach its true sentiments of acceptance, peace, and love. There is a small portion though who miscontrue its teachings to support their terrorist ways, and then some in america looks at the entire middle east as Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, which is not the case. Once again I am not comparing islamic terrorism to anti-gay sentiments in christianty, i am just using it as an example of how people throughout the world misinterpret their very own religions and religious teachings to say what they want to.

-no name calling buddy, i value your opinions, but I just like to try and change a few minds, but not bcuz i have an agenda...

 

[zdorr40]

Ahh, you complain of me placing words in your mouth - yet you take all of my comments as being directed at you - as shown in the one you quotes and your response to it. Never did I say you treat gays differently. Not once did I say you felt inadequate or unmanly around gays. Often times these debates go awry because they turn personal rather than on what the actual issue is (the biggest reason I typically don't like political, religious or minority rights debates). It would be swell if this didn't go that way.

Whatever, I think this is just confusing the issue, 22. I said I believe it is immoral and this is what comes back at me. In much the same way that SOME people label minorities and gays as X, Y, and Z, many times people (such as myself) who disagree with the gay movement, yet still try to treat all people with respect and dignity are labelled as homophobic, ogreish (is this a word?), closed-minded, insecure, etc.

I apologize if I took your response the wrong way, but when you replied to my comments it seemed directed at me and that's not what I'm about. I just hope people can see that it is possible to be against people's ideas, yet still be respectful of the people themselves.

 

[mj4cy]

To be honest, who gives a crap if he's gay. I'm sick of the media making a huge issue out of it like its some rare disease, but then they'll promote equality of all people......i wont go into my personal opinions about homosexuality, but i dont care to see every other headline about gays......

 

[mj4cy]

I have also talked to many clergy who tell me that NOWHERE in the Bible does it say homosexuality is evil or wrong, like some would want you to think. ...

I dont know if I want to get into a religeous discussion, but PM me sometime and I'll show you some reasoning and verses that were pointed out to me on the issue.

 

[colocy]

This is about as big of an issue, as when the first near-sighted or excessive sneezer basketball player decided to "come out"

 

[zdorr40]

first off, i value your opinion, but I think u r looking at some things the wrong way...

-Bcuz so little is known about ones psychology and thoughts at a very young age about it, i am not touching the subject of whether homosexuality is a choice made later in life or whether you are born that way.

-the part you said about a debilitating lifestyle? don't you think about the cause and effect at this juncture? you say its a bad lifestyle to choose bcuz its one where the life expectancies are low, depression rates high, suicide rates high, and that it's TERRIBLE? Don't you think it societies inability to accept this group of people that leads to this?

-The part about the Lord-man, you must have a different Lord than me...I am Christian and I believe in God, and I have read parts of the Bible and find time to study world religions in my freetime. I have also talked to many clergy who tell me that NOWHERE in the Bible does it say homosexuality is evil or wrong, like some would want you to think. There are just people in every religion who find ways to misconstrue things to say exactly what they want to say.

-no name calling buddy, i value your opinions, but I just like to try and change a few minds, but not bcuz i have an agenda...

Thank you. I value your's as well and I'm glad we can be respectful of each other.

Thousands of straight people turn gay, there is no doubt about that. But were you aware that thousands of people leave the gay lifestyle as well? This really makes me question whether or not people are born a certain way. Studies have shown a strong correlation with certain things in childhood with homosexuality.

Does a society's inability to accept a group of people lead to enormous rates of HIV/AIDS infections? It is a sad but true fact that HIV/AIDS attacks the homosexual community at a very disproportionate rate as compared with other groups of people.


With all due respect, my friend, I'm not sure what clergy you were talking to. It's in Romans 1:26-27, 1 Cor 6:9, as well as Leviticus.

 

[Erik4Cy]

the thing is: everyone is gay, its just to what extent...and not only should you show respect and dignity to gays and lesbians as you would any other person, but allow them the same rights and dignities as other people. and i think positive things are happening in this country in the ways of that to change the publics mind (and not by media brainwashing), times are changing for the better. that's all I am saying.

(inappropriate content deleted)

 

[wonkadog]

1st Timothy 1:8-10

8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching...

 

[Erik4Cy]

With all due respect, my friend, I'm not sure what clergy you were talking to. It's in Romans 1:26-27, 1 Cor 6:9, as well as Leviticus.

once again, there are people who will tell you that it is not condemning homosexuality in those passages as well as those who will tell you that it is. Religious teachings are all about how people look at them, and for the most part, someone sitting next to you can see it as a totally different thing. its the same in the bible, as well as the koran and many other religous writings. You cannot just point out one opinion of the passage and say "It's in there alright"

I really think you should check out ReligiousTolerance.org...it's slanted, but not one way or the other, its slanted in both directions and has many interpretations and its interesting to see that there isn't just one meaning to a passage and you definitely cannot use it to condemn an entire group (not saying you PERSONALLY are.)

citing passages is not really a way (IMHO) to say religiously that homosexuality is wrong, immoral, etc. because they cannot all be literally translated or are not going to be translated the same way.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc5.htm

 

[zdorr40]

once again, there are people who will tell you that it is not condemning homosexuality in those passages as well as those who will tell you that it is. Religious teachings are all about how people look at them, and for the most part, someone sitting next to you can see it as a totally different thing. its the same in the bible, as well as the koran and many other religous writings. You cannot just point out one opinion of the passage and say "It's in there alright"

I really think you should check out ReligiousTolerance.org...it's slanted, but not one way or the other, its slanted in both directions and has many interpretations and its interesting to see that there isn't just one meaning to a passage and you definitely cannot use it to condemn an entire group (not saying you PERSONALLY are.)

citing passages is not really a way (IMHO) to say religiously that homosexuality is wrong, immoral, etc. because they cannot all be literally translated or are not going to be translated the same way.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc5.htm

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I agree that there are some passages in the Bible that can be interpretted in different ways, but I firmly believe that wonkadog's post above pretty solidly states what I'm saying.

I will check out your link however.

Also, I hate all Hawkeyes and Cornhuskers and am intolerant of their evil ways.

 

[tigershoops31]

the thing is: everyone is gay, its just to what extent...and not only should you show respect and dignity to gays and lesbians as you would any other person, but allow them the same rights and dignities as other people. and i think positive things are happening in this country in the ways of that to change the publics mind (and not by media brainwashing), times are changing for the better. that's all I am saying.

(inappropriate content deleted)

I'm not really sure what you mean by "everyone is gay"?? I'm not :no6xn: I think homosexuality is wrong, and I know that reference to it being wrong is found repeatedly in the Bible. Now I'm also not a redneck that's going to get up in a homosexual's face and scream at him to turn straight anymore than I would go up to a guy that uses profanity and scream at him to clean it up (unless it was one of my students/players in class or on the court). You can believe the bible or not, but there is no arguing that it is found in there (Leviticus 18:22-Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin-Living Bible Translation). Also, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone when I say "I'm not even a little bit gay", so for you to say that everyone is gay is kind of offensive.

 

[Erik4Cy]

I am getting off the internet for the day, but just wanna say I value everyone's opinions on this, i know it can be a touchy subject to a lot of people, I know it is for me having a lesbian sister and having done my part (althought its not done yet) in the "movement" for gay rights as many would say. But whether religiously we like it or not, gay and lesbians are part of our great nation and they deserve everything any american deserves and should be treated the same as any american. I just think if anyone wants to look down on someone like John Amaechi or have a negative opinion about him, that's fine, it just shouldn't be because of the reason he is gay.

once again zdorr i think you said some good stuff and i understand a lot of what you say, but we can agree to disagree and i think that's fine.

sorry if i offended anyone with the "everyone is gay, its just to what extent" quote. I should say that is just my personal opinion, TRUST ME offending someone religiously, ethnically, racially, etc. is the LAST thing i am aiming to do. I just like to put myself in someone else's shoes and i thought "hey if I was gay and someone told me that "everyone is straight, its just to what extent", would i be offended?" and i found myself saying no I wouldn't be. Apologies to all of you Cyclones, I love you all whether your black, gay, asian, straight, mexican, republican, democrat, klingon, etc. just as long as you aren't a hawkeye LOL

 

[wonkadog]

Yeah, I don't think any of us on the "homosexuality is a sin" side of things are preaching intolerance towards those that are gay. We are of the opinion that homosexuals are living in sin but we still take God's command to "love others as you do yourself" to heart as well. We are not going to judge those here on earth because that's God's job. However, if you ask us our opinion on the topic, we are also not going to hide our belief in God's word.

 

[JCloned]

once again, there are people who will tell you that it is not condemning homosexuality in those passages as well as those who will tell you that it is. Religious teachings are all about how people look at them, and for the most part, someone sitting next to you can see it as a totally different thing. its the same in the bible, as well as the koran and many other religous writings. You cannot just point out one opinion of the passage and say "It's in there alright"


citing passages is not really a way (IMHO) to say religiously that homosexuality is wrong, immoral, etc. because they cannot all be literally translated or are not going to be translated the same way.]

The reality is the Bible is exceptionally clear in its view of homosexuality. To argue that is not, requires as the quotes in the site you reference, to take quotes of our context and/or not consider the whole of the teaching throughout the Bible. Do people attempt to explain away the teachings absolutely.

The question is not really whether the Bible condemns homosexuality, it is in fact, how should those who engage in that behavior be treated? Again, here the Bible is also very clear that it is not the job of followers of Christ to attempt to enforce their views or judge the behavior of people who do not claim to follow Christ. The Bible is very clear that God has chosen that role for himself. While I find it pretty clear that the Bible condemns homosexuality, it is not any less condemning of me cheating on my wife, or lusting. Net, how can I judge one who engages in homosexual behavior more harshly, or treat them with anything less than respect and support when I myself have lust in my own heart?

Should Amaechi be praised for coming out? no, is his timing suspicious with the book? yes, Is he any more of a "sinner" than me, not likely.

 

[zdorr40]

Yeah, I don't think any of us on the "homosexuality is a sin" side of things are preaching intolerance towards those that are gay. We are of the opinion that homosexuals are living in sin but we still take God's command to "love others as you do yourself" to heart as well. We are not going to judge those here on earth because that's God's job. However, if you ask us our opinion on the topic, we are also not going to hide our belief in God's word.

Very well put.

 

[ICCYFAN]

You can believe the bible or not, but there is no arguing that it is found in there (Leviticus 18:22-Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin-Living Bible Translation).

Not that I want to get involved in this debate, but there's plenty to argue about with your "Living Bible Translation" and probably every other English language translation.

I'm a happily practicing Lutheran (ELCA) and often the sermon will include a side-bar on the failure of the English language to truly capture the meaning of the original Hebrew or Greek text. Take it a step further with the dumbing down found in the easy-reading translations, and you really can't cite this as damning evidence. JOMHO!

I don't remember much from my 7th & 8th Grade Confirmation classes (UCC denomination), but Pastor Behle stressed that it was incorrect to interpret the Bible literally. I agree with his rationale from the standpoint that the Bible is a story with a message on how to live your life. For you tech and safety wonks out there, it's a "performance standard" and not a rule book (at least not the New Testament)!

 

[mj4cy]

So......how bout them cyclones?