IT woes; even Microsoft will have sweeping layoffs

jumbopackage

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2007
5,479
249
63
MS is increasingly irrelevant. I don't know that they are really going to recover from this slowdown, to be honest.

Windows 7 better be a home run, otherwise, MS is in deep doodoo, at least as we've always known MS.
 

Gink

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2007
1,090
80
48
My company has an IT staff of around 4000 and we have had an IT hiring freeze for almost 2 years and there are now talks of layoffs (although I don't think that will happen). We still make a few new hires for specific skills but it is rare.

My wife's company has had a IT hiring freeze for many years. There IT department is probably around 4k as well. If they need additional resources it is generally short term contracts or outsourced.
 

MNclone

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2006
3,687
119
63
Burnsville, MN
It is easy to can the IT guys because management doesn't understand what they do.
I suppose this shouldn't apply at Microsoft though....
 
C

Cyclone42

Guest
MS is increasingly irrelevant. I don't know that they are really going to recover from this slowdown, to be honest.

Windows 7 better be a home run, otherwise, MS is in deep doodoo, at least as we've always known MS.


Microsoft will be fine. Let's say Windows 7 is a total bust. Not likely, but let's take that argument. MS still has the Xbox 360, all their Windows Server products, business-oriented Windows products, their Office applications products, other software packages they sell (games for PC and Xbox), etc.
 

TheHelgo

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2006
3,714
1,338
113
MS is increasingly irrelevant. I don't know that they are really going to recover from this slowdown, to be honest.

Windows 7 better be a home run, otherwise, MS is in deep doodoo, at least as we've always known MS.

I'm sorry, but is this statement a joke? Increasingly irrelevant?? I guess, only if you think 90%+ market share in computer operating systems, >50% market share in server software, and a growing Entertainment division is called irrelevant. Biggest company in the world is irrelevant folks! I guess we are in deep ****.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TykeClone

Burgermeister!
Oct 18, 2006
25,799
2,155
113
Microsoft will be fine. Let's say Windows 7 is a total bust. Not likely, but let's take that argument. MS still has the Xbox 360, all their Windows Server products, business-oriented Windows products, their Office applications products, other software packages they sell (games for PC and Xbox), etc.

Does the XBox hardware make any money? Or is it a loss leader to get their box on people's tvs?

Server products are getting pushed hard by open source alternatives.

Office applications are being pushed by both open source and online products that do similar things for lower costs and less hassle.

If MS does fumble the ball with Windows 7, what will that mean? It will mean that many businesses are still running Windows XP with its clock running out and will start looking for a way out of that - an alternative OS platform (or even just a net-based platform) upon which they can do their business upon.

MS will not be in trouble with the home market as long as Windows 7 has the eye candy and runs games well. But I think that they make a lot of their money in corporate IT.
 

Wesley

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2006
70,923
546
113
Omaha
MS is increasingly irrelevant. I don't know that they are really going to recover from this slowdown, to be honest.

Windows 7 better be a home run, otherwise, MS is in deep doodoo, at least as we've always known MS.

That is why they left soft in their names. Seems like their heyday may be passed.
 

Wesley

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2006
70,923
546
113
Omaha
Does the XBox hardware make any money? Or is it a loss leader to get their box on people's tvs?

Server products are getting pushed hard by open source alternatives.

Office applications are being pushed by both open source and online products that do similar things for lower costs and less hassle.

If MS does fumble the ball with Windows 7, what will that mean? It will mean that many businesses are still running Windows XP with its clock running out and will start looking for a way out of that - an alternative OS platform (or even just a net-based platform) upon which they can do their business upon.

MS will not be in trouble with the home market as long as Windows 7 has the eye candy and runs games well. But I think that they make a lot of their money in corporate IT.


XBox and games loses money. Irt is an attrition item.
 

jumbopackage

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2007
5,479
249
63
Microsoft will be fine. Let's say Windows 7 is a total bust. Not likely, but let's take that argument. MS still has the Xbox 360, all their Windows Server products, business-oriented Windows products, their Office applications products, other software packages they sell (games for PC and Xbox), etc.
XBox is a loss-leader.
Windows server products are increasingly replaceable. In 10-15 years, you probably won't even have a server at your company. It'll be virtualized somewhere on the 'net. It might run Linux or Windows or who knows. You won't care because it will all be seamless to you.

Office applications are still hanging around, but there are increasingly useful alternatives to traditional office applications.

I'm sorry, but is this statement a joke? Increasingly irrelevant?? I guess, only if you think 90%+ market share in computer operating systems, >50% market share in server software, and a growing Entertainment division is called irrelevant. Biggest company in the world is irrelevant folks! I guess we are in deep sh*t.

Their market share in operating systems is all fine and good, but it's an increasingly meaningless statistic. The PC market is mostly saturated. The massive growth we saw in the last 5-10 years is slowing - especially with the slowing economy. Market share only means something if there is a market. As more and more stuff gets moved to the net, the OS is becoming meaningless.

Vista was a total flop. People are largely happy with XP.

MS's browser share is at it's lowest in 8 years and falling.

Google is clobbering MS online, and that's where pretty much all the growth is. It isn't so much that MS is becoming irrelevant, but that their historical business is changing dramatically and they aren't structured to compete.

Basically, MS is what IBM was when MS was born.
 

IcSyU

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2007
28,306
6,980
113
I honestly think if Google released an open source operating system, they could single handedly drive Microsoft into the ground. Slowly but surely, Google is releasing products that have the same use as products Microsoft has released, but only easier to use and cheaper (see Chrome vs. Internet Explorer, Google Maps vs. Microsoft Streets and Maps). Once they got people to start flipping over in the corporate world, I could see Microsoft falling apart. Microsoft Office is quickly running into issues with internet products such as OpenOffice and with the current state of the economy, a free application (I think?) such as OpenOffice is going to become a viable option to many computer users.
 

bos

Legend
Staff member
Apr 10, 2006
30,641
6,424
113
Office is slipping to OO? According to who? Vista may be a flop to some but there are still alot of users out there. Aside from Gmail being superior to Hotmail (for spam anyway), I dont see how Google is really stealing much. When its all said and done between Microsoft vs the World, it comes down to support. I will say though, on the virtualization side of things, VMware has Virtual PC beat hands down.
 

jumbopackage

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2007
5,479
249
63
Office is slipping to OO? According to who? Vista may be a flop to some but there are still alot of users out there. Aside from Gmail being superior to Hotmail (for spam anyway), I dont see how Google is really stealing much. When its all said and done between Microsoft vs the World, it comes down to support. I will say though, on the virtualization side of things, VMware has Virtual PC beat hands down.

There are a lot of Vista users out there, but only because they've bought new computers. When people stop buying new computers, Vista will stop selling. And there is less and less reason for people to buy new computers, given that the economy is on a downwards pace and what most people have is good enough for what they do.

MS's traditional revenue stream is drying up. OSs are "good enough" for what everyone does these days, and there really isn't a whole lot of benefit for most consumers to upgrade.

The big advances in the application world that people "must have" are all coming from the net. Facebook, Flickr, Twitter, Youtube - hell Cyclonefanatic. Those are the things that increasingly make having a computer valuable. And NONE of them have anything to do with Microsoft.

Facebook - Apache
Flickr - Apache/linux
Twitter - Apache/linux
Cyclonefanatic - Apache/Linux
Youtube - Apache/Linux

None of those sites require squat in terms of MS applications to function.

Google's entire revenue stream almost all comes from advertising. MS is missing out on all of that.

Virtualization of servers and services means that physical hardware - and the licenses that have always been tied to it - is/are less and less meaningful, and less and less valuable.

While MS may still have a lot of clout, the "seeds" of the end of them as we have always known them have been planted. Just as IBM survived when the PC happened, MS will survive as well. Google is the next MS, though, and MS is the next IBM.
 

bos

Legend
Staff member
Apr 10, 2006
30,641
6,424
113
Google's entire revenue stream almost all comes from advertising. MS is missing out on all of that.

.

That scares me in so many ways.


MS will probably feel the pinch and will most likely restructure. If the top dogs arent seeing this, then the board needs to find new management for the company's future.

Linux is still a looooooong way from becoming a fighter in the ring on general user level and is still fighting to get into alot of business use. I think they will get in somewhat.

So do you think at some point that computers wont be as we know them today and will in some way become just thin client terminals? Essentially, a flash based drive while all apps and storage will be online? (should bandwidth restrictions be a non factor)
 

TheHelgo

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2006
3,714
1,338
113
XBox is a loss-leader.
Windows server products are increasingly replaceable. In 10-15 years, you probably won't even have a server at your company. It'll be virtualized somewhere on the 'net. It might run Linux or Windows or who knows. You won't care because it will all be seamless to you.

Office applications are still hanging around, but there are increasingly useful alternatives to traditional office applications.



Their market share in operating systems is all fine and good, but it's an increasingly meaningless statistic. The PC market is mostly saturated. The massive growth we saw in the last 5-10 years is slowing - especially with the slowing economy. Market share only means something if there is a market. As more and more stuff gets moved to the net, the OS is becoming meaningless.

Vista was a total flop. People are largely happy with XP.

MS's browser share is at it's lowest in 8 years and falling.

Google is clobbering MS online, and that's where pretty much all the growth is. It isn't so much that MS is becoming irrelevant, but that their historical business is changing dramatically and they aren't structured to compete.

Basically, MS is what IBM was when MS was born.

Ok, i don't know what industry you work in, but some of what you are saying is off base in my opinion.

1. Office Applications. Ok, things are moving to the net - Microsoft has announced and is implementing Cloud based versions of Office that will be sold on a subscription basis.

2. Operating systems. No matter how much stuff becomes virtualized or cloud-based, an OS will still be needed to access and utilize those applications - unless you have some brilliant plan to stick the OS in a cloud, which I would love to see how that would work.

3. GOOG vs. MSFT online. Here is something I agree whole-heartedly with you on. GOOG is destroying everyone in terms of search and selling Ads online. Once again though, you have to give MSFT an edge long term here unless GOOG figures out more ways to generate revenue. Business is generally unkind to companies who can't figure out a way to branch out from being a one-trick pony.

4. Vista. Probably a flop in terms of reputation, but not in terms of $$ generation. In addition, I think most are seeing Vista as a bridge to Windows 7, which is when most commercial businesses will upgrade.

5. IBM reference. Good analogy. However, IBM eventually found its way through this and is now (once again) an ultra-successful company - making $ hand over fist with its consulting arm.
 

bos

Legend
Staff member
Apr 10, 2006
30,641
6,424
113
I know Chrome is still in its infancy, but its not ringing any bells. If anyone is going to fight IE it will be firefox.

As far as a google os. I am hesitant on how it it will turn out. Just another linux flavor with some goofy google stuff all over it. Its going to have to be revolutionary in order to really get people to flock to it.
 

jumbopackage

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2007
5,479
249
63
That scares me in so many ways.


MS will probably feel the pinch and will most likely restructure. If the top dogs arent seeing this, then the board needs to find new management for the company's future.

Linux is still a looooooong way from becoming a fighter in the ring on general user level and is still fighting to get into alot of business use. I think they will get in somewhat.

So do you think at some point that computers wont be as we know them today and will in some way become just thin client terminals? Essentially, a flash based drive while all apps and storage will be online? (should bandwidth restrictions be a non factor)

We aren't far from that, and I think that's the direction things are currently headed.

Ok, i don't know what industry you work in, but some of what you are saying is off base in my opinion.

1. Office Applications. Ok, things are moving to the net - Microsoft has announced and is implementing Cloud based versions of Office that will be sold on a subscription basis.

2. Operating systems. No matter how much stuff becomes virtualized or cloud-based, an OS will still be needed to access and utilize those applications - unless you have some brilliant plan to stick the OS in a cloud, which I would love to see how that would work.

3. GOOG vs. MSFT online. Here is something I agree whole-heartedly with you on. GOOG is destroying everyone in terms of search and selling Ads online. Once again though, you have to give MSFT an edge long term here unless GOOG figures out more ways to generate revenue. Business is generally unkind to companies who can't figure out a way to branch out from being a one-trick pony.

4. Vista. Probably a flop in terms of reputation, but not in terms of $$ generation. In addition, I think most are seeing Vista as a bridge to Windows 7, which is when most commercial businesses will upgrade.

5. IBM reference. Good analogy. However, IBM eventually found its way through this and is now (once again) an ultra-successful company - making $ hand over fist with its consulting arm.

1. Agreed. The question is whether MS really has any sort of advantage in this space. It isn't JUST the office application anymore, but the integration of that into the whole environment. Collaboration and all that jazz.

2. The OS already largely IS the cloud. The web browser does so much that the OS used to do. Flash, AJAX, Java etc, all run full featured applications in a web browser. The OS is just a life support system for it. Sure there are things that still don't work well with that model, but it won't be long before that's figured out too. The OS is an increasingly (though certainly not yet totally) irrelevant piece of the puzzle. Once you realize that almost everything you need/want to do can be done in a web browser, nothing is stopping you from migrating to Linux or OS X or your mobile phone.

3. Google has been selling directly in MS's back yard in a few areas. They are offering customized search services, complete productivity solutions for small business etc. They are branching out in a variety of ways and being pretty smart about it. I'm not saying they are not still a one trick pony, but they seem to be one step ahead of MS at every turn online and in the cloud, and they've got a name that people associate with innovation right now. MS has a lot of catching up to do.

4. MS has been cooking the books on this. XP would be generating essentially the same revenue that Vista has. Nobody that I know has actually gone out and bought a retail copy of Vista, or upgraded just to run Vista. It's eye candy that doesn't really bring anything to the table that XP doesn't (or couldn't). Sure Windows 7 sounds all fine and good, but I think there are a LOT of companies out there that don't want Vista OR Windows 7. XP is all the life support system they need to run their critical applications. It works, and people are accustomed to it. Windows 7 is essentially change for the sake of change, and with tightening IT budgets, unless there are amazingly compelling reasons to switch, I just dont' see it happening.

In the past, MS could always just pull out the support or sales rug from an OS and it would wither and die because people needed MS software to do things that were important to them. With the web taking over more and more, that's less and less the case and MS doesn't have the leverage it once did.

5. I agree that MS will survive somehow or another, but just as IBM doesn't have nearly the clout they once had - a near total monopoly - MS won't have it going forward either. It may still be a very successful company (or companies) but MS as we once knew it, in my opinion, is largely on it's way out the door.
 

jumbopackage

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2007
5,479
249
63
I know Chrome is still in its infancy, but its not ringing any bells. If anyone is going to fight IE it will be firefox.

As far as a google os. I am hesitant on how it it will turn out. Just another linux flavor with some goofy google stuff all over it. Its going to have to be revolutionary in order to really get people to flock to it.

TG Daily - How serious is the market share loss of Microsoft’s Internet Explorer?

IE is slowly dying, and Firefox is slowly growing. Chrome is currently a minor player, and probably will be for some time (if not forever), but it's irrelevant to MS's situation WHO is picking up market share, just that they are losing it.

A Google OS, properly done, could be a pretty big thing. Properly integrated, and with the right APIs and hooks, it might bring something to the desktop akin to Android "heavy", making the PC more like a really fast, really powerful smartphone, and less like the current cantankerous pile of applications shoehorned into a container we currently have.

Who knows. The faster IE goes away, though, the happier the internet will be, IMO.
 

bos

Legend
Staff member
Apr 10, 2006
30,641
6,424
113
Half of the FF users I know only chose firefox because they heard from a friend brothers dogs roommate that its more secure and that their computer will be surrendered to hackers if they dont switch. Its not because they like it or the experience is more superior. Im not saying IE is awesome, but unfounded word of mouth has a funny way of wrecking things.


Microsoft is also suffering from a little of the Walmart attitude. Big company = the devil. There a growing number of folks who buy into that mentality as well.

Google will have its day where they will be so large that people will **** on them too. My only real beef with Google is that they are so information crazy, I worry what they may do with it all someday.
 
Last edited:

jumbopackage

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2007
5,479
249
63
Half of the FF users I know only chose firefox because they heard from a friend brothers dogs roommate that its more secure and that their computer will be surrendered to hackers if they dont switch. Its not because they like it or the experience is more superior. Im not saying IE is awesome, but unfounded word of mouth has a funny way of wrecking things.


Microsoft is also suffering from a little of the Walmart attitude. Big company = the devil. There a growing number of folks who buy into that mentality as well.

Google will have its day where they will be so large that people will **** on them too. My only real beef with Google is that they are so information crazy, I worry what they may do with it all someday.
Well FF IS more secure, for the most part. IE is a festering cesspit and it always has been.

It's probably a bit true about the Walmart thing. That being said, MS has done themselves no favors over the years to earn good will in the marketplace.