I suppose you agree that the B12 just wasn't all that this year ...

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weR138

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Feb 20, 2008
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Look for Michigan to beat TxT taking the B12 out completely. I was surprised that ISU didn't get by the first weekend but consistency has been an issue, hasn't it. Ku lost to the FBI and injuries. K-State without Dean Wade was an average team. OU and BU were not tournament worthy. Thankfully, TCU and Texas went to the NIT. Maybe one of them will win that. At least the streak is dead.
If you're invited to participate in a tournament; you're "worthy" of that tournament.

If you win a game in said tournament your "worthiness" is beyond question.

Pretty basic logic.
 

randomfan44

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May 30, 2015
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Nope, the opposite. TxT's skinny big isn't going to match the strength of Michigan inside.
Tech has 250 pound Odiase to match up with UMs Teske. He had 14 points and 15 boards vs. Buffalo and will be just fine.

Owens will match up with Brazdeikis, who is 215 pounds and shoots 35% of his shots from beyond the three point line.

But cool theory.
 
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ClonesFTW

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Show me another conference that was decimated by injuries to their stars more than the B12 this season:

ISU - Wigginton
KU - Azubuikie
KSt- Wade
WVU - Konate
Baylor - Tristan Clark
TCU - Jaylen Fisher
 

guacamole7

Member
Feb 4, 2010
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While i agree the big12 didn't have many "great" teams, it is beyond asinine to judge a conference purely based on results in a single elimination tournament with random match ups. Let's throw out the 30+ data points we have on each team prior and then use the smallest sample size possible and just go with that as fact. If we want to use similar logic, let's discard the regular season big12 and just use the big12 tournament to assess the teams. That means Tech isn't even a top 4 team in the conference. Clearly I'm not advocating that, I'm just saying it's the same criteria.
 

surly

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May 16, 2013
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While i agree the big12 didn't have many "great" teams, it is beyond asinine to judge a conference purely based on results in a single elimination tournament with random match ups. Let's throw out the 30+ data points we have on each team prior and then use the smallest sample size possible and just go with that as fact. If we want to use similar logic, let's discard the regular season big12 and just use the big12 tournament to assess the teams. That means Tech isn't even a top 4 team in the conference. Clearly I'm not advocating that, I'm just saying it's the same criteria.
You can rationalize that way if you choose. But for me, it's how the league does in the tournament that determines it's overall strength. Last year 3 went to the E8. This year, I'll be surprised if any make it. By my standard, whether you agree or not, the B12 is not as good this year as last and is 4th overall as a conference, if that. Hold out for TxT though. :cool:
 

guacamole7

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Feb 4, 2010
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That's what I'm disagreeing with you, assessing league strength purely based on the NCAA makes little sense. The fact UCF had a few unlucky breaks doesn't mean that the ACC is now that much better since they have an additional team in the Sweet 16. Also, why are you using the Elite 8 as the barometer? That seems completely arbitrary. Why not overall record? Why not Sweet 16 or Final 4?
 

CloniesForLife

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Big12 is solid top to bottom but I honestly only had 2 teams in the Sweet 16. One of those was ISU so it might have been a homer pick but K-State w/o Wade wasn't making it and KU against Auburn wasn't a good match up. I am not shocked at all with the performance so far. Hoping Tech can get past Michigan and represent.
 

surly

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That's what I'm disagreeing with you, assessing league strength purely based on the NCAA makes little sense. The fact UCF had a few unlucky breaks doesn't mean that the ACC is now that much better since they have an additional team in the Sweet 16. Also, why are you using the Elite 8 as the barometer? That seems completely arbitrary. Why not overall record? Why not Sweet 16 or Final 4?
What the hell, the NCAA makes little sense? Why do we watch if that's true? Right now, teams should be at their prime, playing their collective best, sans injuries that derail some along the way. And it's not one team, that's the whole point of making an overall conference assessment. The tournament allows us to judge how a conference is doing, not the single upset winner or loser like UCF. Interestingly, there's a lot of chalk this year.
 

kcbob79clone

Well-Known Member
March Madness is all about the matchups and if a player gets hot that you don't expect. For example 2nd best Ohio State player we held to 2 points but others shot lights out. Then that player was good against Houston, and oh by the way the officials were calling the moving screens against Ohio State but maybe that belongs in a different thread :)

Can't base league strength on March Madness but the body of work.
 
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awd4cy

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Dec 29, 2010
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I really don’t understand the thinking that TCU should have been in the tourney. Their non conference was weak and the went 7-11 in the Big 12. Their resume stunk.
 
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BillBrasky4Cy

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Dec 10, 2013
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You can rationalize that way if you choose. But for me, it's how the league does in the tournament that determines it's overall strength. Last year 3 went to the E8. This year, I'll be surprised if any make it. By my standard, whether you agree or not, the B12 is not as good this year as last and is 4th overall as a conference, if that. Hold out for TxT though. :cool:
Just like bowl games but using tournament performance to determine conference strength is freakin lazy. The big dance is all about match ups and who catches the breaks. I know it's crazy but sometimes teams just have a bad game and poof they've been eliminated.
 

BillBrasky4Cy

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Dec 10, 2013
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What the hell, the NCAA makes little sense? Why do we watch if that's true? Right now, teams should be at their prime, playing their collective best, sans injuries that derail some along the way. And it's not one team, that's the whole point of making an overall conference assessment. The tournament allows us to judge how a conference is doing, not the single upset winner or loser like UCF. Interestingly, there's a lot of chalk this year.
He's not wrong though. Go back 15-20 years and tell me how many times the perceived #1 team won the championship?. How many of those years was the elite 8 or final 4 anywhere close to being chalk? Weird **** happens in the tournament but that's what makes it appointment television.
 

CyCrazy

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Dec 17, 2008
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My premise is that the conference is not at all strong this year, like last when it put 3 in the E8. You dispute that?
What does 3 elite 8 teams have to do with anything. It's mostly about matchups.
 

surly

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May 16, 2013
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Just like bowl games but using tournament performance to determine conference strength is freakin lazy. The big dance is all about match ups and who catches the breaks. I know it's crazy but sometimes teams just have a bad game and poof they've been eliminated.
That's one of the worst/lazy comparisons ever. Bowl games are so meaningless that players now aren't even participating. While the dance is an absolute gut-wrenching play for every team, player and fan. Give me a break, please.

 

cycart

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Jul 2, 2012
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You can rationalize that way if you choose. But for me, it's how the league does in the tournament that determines it's overall strength. Last year 3 went to the E8. This year, I'll be surprised if any make it. By my standard, whether you agree or not, the B12 is not as good this year as last and is 4th overall as a conference, if that. Hold out for TxT though. :cool:
So hypothetically, say TTU wins the title. Does that make the Big 12 the best conference this year? 2nd best ? 3rd? or 4th regardless of whether the "Best" team in the country was in the league?
 

alarson

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Mar 15, 2006
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Just like bowl games but using tournament performance to determine conference strength is freakin lazy. The big dance is all about match ups and who catches the breaks. I know it's crazy but sometimes teams just have a bad game and poof they've been eliminated.
Actually its probably even less of a quality metric than bowl games.

Bowl games usually at least match up top vs top, middle vs middle, whereas in the first couple rounds you're often matching up the best teams vs more middle-ground ones.

Of the 6 teams the big 12 got in:
2 (OU, Baylor)- lost to the 1 seed in their region after beating more comparably seeded teams in an 8\9 game
1 (Kansas)- lost to a better seeded team after beating a lesser seeded team
1 (ISU) lost to a lower seeded team.
1 (KSU)- lost after having its best player unavailable
1 (Tech) is still playing

Aside from ISU\KSU basically everyone performed 'to seed'. And as a the 24th overall seeded team, even ISU only really missed their seed expected result, making it to the round of 32, by one round.
 

surly

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May 16, 2013
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So hypothetically, say TTU wins the title. Does that make the Big 12 the best conference this year? 2nd best ? 3rd? or 4th regardless of whether the "Best" team in the country was in the league?
That means TxT was the outlier because the conference overall never made it out of the first weekend, not a single member. But that's not happening anyway, rhetorical as it may be.
 

BillBrasky4Cy

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Dec 10, 2013
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That's one of the worst/lazy comparisons ever. Bowl games are so meaningless that players now aren't even participating. While the dance is an absolute gut-wrenching play for every team, player and fan. Give me a break, please.

It wasn't a direct comparison dumb dumb. I used bowl game performance because people love to use that as some form of conference SOS justification, which is stupid. Just like using the NCAA tournament as a conference SOS stupid.
 

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