NBA: Bill Simmons piece on Jordan vs. LeBron

[CychiatricWard]

Bill Russell, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, K.C. Jones, Tom Sanders, John Havlicek, Jim Loscutoff, Frank Ramsey, and Robert Horry have more rings. I hate the rings argument so much. I get that most of those players weren't the stars, but it is still silly.

This goes outside the LeBron/Jordan debate, but I just don't understand any real hate for great players, in any sport. I get that you might like one more, but I appreciate watching talent do talented things.

 

[tre]

You don’t see the difference between the teams/supporting cast MJ played with vs what LeBron has played with?

 

[CloneGuy8]

You don’t see the difference between the teams/supporting cast MJ played with vs what LeBron has played with?

Why do people act like LeBron won championships with a bunch of scrubs? In Miami, he had Wade and Bosh. In Cleveland, he had Kyrie and Love. His supporting cast was not lacking talent.

The rings argument I make is actually in respect to LeBron. I think that they're so close when debating who is better, that this is what tips the scales for me.

 

[tre]

LeBron made the finals with Daniel Gibson and Zydrunas Ilgauskas starting & WALLY SZCZERBIAK off the bench

When did MJ play in the finals with a team like that?

 

[CloneGuy8]

LeBron made the finals with Daniel Gibson and Zydrunas Ilgauskas starting & WALLY SZCZERBIAK off the bench

When did MJ play in the finals with a team like that?

Never, because the East generally wasn't trash when Jordan played.

 

[tre]

Or because MJ never won anything without Scottie

 

[jdoggivjc]

This is why it is hard to compare the two. Jordan would have the potential to avg 40 a night with the current rules. LeBron would be guarded totally different in Jordan's era. LeBron shares the basketball more, or is that because Jordan played in a era where sharing wasn't caring. I will say this, if you get a time machine, give them both their best teams that won titles, there is no way Jordan lets LeBron beat him. Jordan had a killer instinct like no one before or since. LeBron doesn't have that, which is probably a good thing for his likability, but not for his title chasing. That said, Jordan would have never left Chicago in his prime to play on someone else's team. Take a sabbatical yes, but he would never have left to go play with Charles Barkley in Phoenix.

I am not a LeBron fan, but he is certainly in the conversation of best ever. But for me, watching Jordan play basketball was better than watching LeBron play basketball. Maybe because I was 8-18 years old for Jordan's prime and I am older for LeBron so it isn't as magical.

Bull. ****. Did you even read the article?

Jordan never left Chicago because he COULDN'T leave Chicago. By the end of his second run in Chicago he couldn't stand Pippen or Rodman anymore, and the only thing keeping him there was Jackson. When Jackson checked out, Jordan checked out. The reason why he went on sabbatical is because the NBA salary structure changed at that time and nobody could afford to sign him. But yet people convenently forget those years he played with the Wizards because it doesn't fit with the perfect Jordan narrative.

Fine. Jordan wouldn't "play for someone else's team". That's because whatever team he played for would have become "his team" and the existing stars on that team would have fallen in line behind him, regardless if it was Barkley in Phoenix or Robinson and Duncan in San Antonio.

You can believe the BS narrative that "the stars of yesteryear would have hadd too much pride to play with one another", but the only reason in reality it didn't happen in their primes is because it wasn't an option for any of them. I mean, you have to completely ignore that they did that very thing after their primes.

 

[jdoggivjc]

Never, because the East generally wasn't trash when Jordan played.

No, but the West was. Getting past the East when Jordan played was pretty much a guaranteed NBA title.

 

[CloneGuy8]

No, but the West was. Getting past the East when Jordan played was pretty much a guaranteed NBA title.

Eh, maybe the earlier titles but those Utah teams were pretty good.

 

[jdoggivjc]

Why do people act like LeBron won championships with a bunch of scrubs? In Miami, he had Wade and Bosh. In Cleveland, he had Kyrie and Love. His supporting cast was not lacking talent.

The rings argument I make is actually in respect to LeBron. I think that they're so close when debating who is better, that this is what tips the scales for me.

That's not the argument. The argument is his original run with Cleveland, ending in 2010, where he dragged a terrible team to the NBA Finals essentially by himself but ran into the Spurs dynasty. With LeBron in 2009-10 they were one of the best teams in the league. Without LeBron in 2010-11 they were one of the worst. And that, along with the fact that Cavs didn't want to spend money to get better, was what caused LeBron to start chasing championships.

 

[HFCS]

Why do people act like LeBron won championships with a bunch of scrubs? In Miami, he had Wade and Bosh. In Cleveland, he had Kyrie and Love. His supporting cast was not lacking talent.

The rings argument I make is actually in respect to LeBron. I think that they're so close when debating who is better, that this is what tips the scales for me.

The supporting casts have been comparable. Jordan did have better coaches (I think Collins was better than LBJ’s average coach). A few years ago on this site some Heat bandwagon fans (several) were arguing with me that Spoelstra was this epic incredible coach. It seems a few of them have come around to reality. I never got why at the time they felt compelled to delude themselves Spo wasJohn Wooden.

 

[CyJack13]

T


I think you are missing the argument. You are saying young LeBron was better than young Jordan because LeBron's teams were in the playoffs and even made a finals. I am saying I don't buy that argument because the East from top to bottom wasn't strong. Maybe there were 2 or 3 decent teams and then there was nothing after that. And for Jordan's young teams, well half the East had HOF players on their rosters. Plus two legit all time team in the Celts and Pistons. Not to mention the 76ers of that time.

The moves the Cavs made were bad and the moves the Bulls made were good. But the Wiggins trade was forced by LBJ so that is on him. I thought that was a perfect side kick for him. Someone to teach, and someone who would be able to take pressure off him. Kyrie, LBJ and Wiggins is a great three. This really doesn't weigh on the GOAT talk though, it ways on their ability to win titles. But LBJ gets to play in a era were movement is constant, while MJ played at the end of the Stars don't leave teams era. I remember when Barkley went from the 76ers to the Suns. Everyone was stunned. It just didn't happen very often.

I don’t know if Wiggins is actually good. He’s certainly nowhere close to being a key contributor on a championship team. Love might not have been the best fit but LeBron didn’t have time to wait for Wiggins to develop into a high level player, which he still hasn’t shown that he is.

 

[boone7247]

Bull. ****. Did you even read the article?

Jordan never left Chicago because he COULDN'T leave Chicago. By the end of his second run in Chicago he couldn't stand Pippen or Rodman anymore, and the only thing keeping him there was Jackson. When Jackson checked out, Jordan checked out. The reason why he went on sabbatical is because the NBA salary structure changed at that time and nobody could afford to sign him. But yet people convenently forget those years he played with the Wizards because it doesn't fit with the perfect Jordan narrative.

Fine. Jordan wouldn't "play for someone else's team". That's because whatever team he played for would have become "his team" and the existing stars on that team would have fallen in line behind him, regardless if it was Barkley in Phoenix or Robinson and Duncan in San Antonio.

You can believe the BS narrative that "the stars of yesteryear would have hadd too much pride to play with one another", but the only reason in reality it didn't happen in their primes is because it wasn't an option for any of them. I mean, you have to completely ignore that they did that very thing after their primes.

If Jordan wanted to play for another team he could have forced it to happen. Whether it was sign and trade, or taking less money via free agency if he really wanted to play somewhere else with some other star he could have. He didn't force it to happen. That is evidence enough for me that he wasn't looking to go play with his buddies and wasn't leaving Chicago for a soft landing spot to roll up titles. LBJ had different motivations that MJ, LBJ hadn't won yet so the move isn't horrible the execution was.

That's not the argument. The argument is his original run with Cleveland, ending in 2010, where he dragged a terrible team to the NBA Finals essentially by himself but ran into the Spurs dynasty. With LeBron in 2009-10 they were one of the best teams in the league. Without LeBron in 2010-11 they were one of the worst. And that, along with the fact that Cavs didn't want to spend money to get better, was what caused LeBron to start chasing championships.

Please go look at the 2007 standing and playoff bracket. The East was horrible. Chicago finished one game back of Cleveland, with a core of Deng, Gordon, Ben Wallace, Noah and Hinrich. That team should never win 49 games. And I don't think anyone is saying LeBron isn't good, he is legitimately in the conversation for best player of all time. As of right now he isn't better than Jordan, cause he hasn't done enough, Just like the article you claim I didn't read says.

I don’t know if Wiggins is actually good. He’s certainly nowhere close to being a key contributor on a championship team. Love might not have been the best fit but LeBron didn’t have time to wait for Wiggins to develop into a high level player, which he still hasn’t shown that he is.

That is a fair point, but would Wiggins been better off and grown more with LeBron to show him the way, and Kyrie to grow with? With Minnesota until this year, he was either their best or second best player once they got KAT. On that Cleveland team he never has to be better than a third option and gets the benefit of winning games, and playing with LeBron and Kyrie. We will never know. Ultimately Cleveland doesn't care they have been in the finals and won one.

 

[HFCS]

Just wanted to run some #s here...the thread is really lacking in numbers and I know at least half of the thread obviously didn't watch Michael Jordan play basketball live:

Playoff games:
Jordan - 179 playoff games, 13 appearances, 6 rings (through age 34)
LeBron - 217 playoff games, 12 appearances, 3 rings (through age 32)

Playoff Averages (better average in bold of every majorly followed stat):
MJ - 33.4 ppg*, 6.4 rpg, 5.7 apg, .487fg%, 2.1 steals, .9 blocks, 3.1 TO, 28.6 PER*
.46 championships

LBJ - 28.4 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 6.9 apg, .485fg%, 1.8 steals, 1 blocks, 3.6 TO, 27.9 PER
.25 championships

Season Playoff stat leader:
MJ - led playoffs in scoring 10 times*, led PER 6 times, led playoffs in steals twice
LBJ - led playoffs in scoring 1 time, led PER 4 times


I didn't want to make my point that LBJ is more talented and more complete, yet Jordan was the better competitor with no statistical data. When it counted, you could count on MJ as much as anyone who has ever played. MJ's playoff scoring average is possibly the most untouchable record in American sports. Steph Curry, LeBron and KD are all great playoffs scorers of this somewhat high scoring era...they'd all need to average over 40ppg in the playoffs for 6-12 seasons in a row starting this year on the back half of their careers to sniff Jordan's mark. He was the the best playoff scorer in basketball history with a huge gap.

*Denotes all time record