NBA: Bill Simmons piece on Jordan vs. LeBron

[boone7247]

Weak take. Jordan would have too if he wouldn't have fallen into a team with very high draft picks to build with. He didn't win until those were in the fold. Lebron was so good that he continually sabotaged his teams ability to build in the draft.

Wait Wait Wait! The East was probably as bad of a conference as their has ever been in pro American sports at that time. A) he was a really good player B) no one else in the East had a good player except for Wade in Miami and Bosh in Toronto, for the length of that stint. Every other East team was dog **** for at least part of that time. Until the Celtics got the Big 3. That is what killed Cleveland's chances of building a good team about LBJ.

Those early MJ teams were competing with HOFers every night in the east. Don't believe me. Here are the All Star rosters for year three of LBJ and MJ.

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/allstar/game/rosters/2006

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_NBA_All-Star_Game

There is a significant difference in those rosters. That helped make sure MJs Bulls weren't too good to fast. That LBJ didn't get the benefit of.

 

[Tre4ISU]

Wait Wait Wait! The East was probably as bad of a conference as their has ever been in pro American sports at that time. A) he was a really good player B) no one else in the East had a good player except for Wade in Miami and Bosh in Toronto, for the length of that stint. Every other East team was dog **** for at least part of that time. Until the Celtics got the Big 3. That is what killed Cleveland's chances of building a good team about LBJ.

Those early MJ teams were competing with HOFers every night in the east. Don't believe me. Here are the All Star rosters for year three of LBJ and MJ.

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/allstar/game/rosters/2006

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_NBA_All-Star_Game

There is a significant difference in those rosters. That helped make sure MJs Bulls weren't too good to fast. That LBJ didn't get the benefit of.

He lost to the Spurs, Pistons and Celtics. That Pistons team wasn't good? Come on. Paul Pierce wasn't good? Please. Dwight Howard?

There was one guy they drafted that has had even a mediocre career in Danny Green. The best pick they had was 10th after LJs rookie year and they took Luke Jackson. That was the chance to find a guy who could help. Then, when they had a chance to get him back, they go and draft Anthony Bennett and then they trade the perfect Pippen type of guy in Wiggins for Kevin Love. That's a long way from trading Polynice for Pippen and grabbing guys like Perdue, Armstrong and Grant when you do have a chance.

 

[VeloClone]

I just don't get the level of competition talk implying that there are better players now vs then.

Jordan played again Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Payton, Robinson, Miller, Ewing, Mullin, Thomas, etc etc. I'd argue there there were more truly great hall of fame players then than there are now.

That is a great list and he didn't even say Larry effing Bird.

 

[Tre4ISU]

I just don't get the level of competition talk implying that there are better players now vs then.

Jordan played again Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Payton, Robinson, Miller, Ewing, Mullin, Thomas, etc etc. I'd argue there there were more truly great hall of fame players then than there are now.

I think that with low periods here and there, skill and talent are mostly equal, relatively speaking, from era to era. The game certainly changes but there are always good players and bad teams and good players and bad players. It's just that right now, that's a lot more consolidated. The plus side is you get some guys on poor teams that have to do a lot and make a name for themselves.

 

[HFCS]

LeBron is the most gifted, talented, skilled and well rounded player of all time. Jordan is the superior competitor.

I don’t see how all of that is not crystal clear to anyone who actually watched both of their careers.

LeBron has a chance to absolutely dominate in total overall production and be greatest ever from that perspective (already closing in). I’m not saying he’s a poor competitor but he just has not consistently had Jordan’s competitive drive, he has at times and other times very obviously not. In my experience people who can’t see this are under 35 or clear Jordan “haters”.

 

[jbindm]

I just don't get the level of competition talk implying that there are better players now vs then.

Jordan played again Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Payton, Robinson, Miller, Ewing, Mullin, Thomas, etc etc. I'd argue there there were more truly great hall of fame players then than there are now.

I'm not arguing the number of great players. When I say watered down I'm referring to the overall diluted talent pool thanks to expansion. There were great players, sure, but the league expanding by four teams from 88-89 and then again by two more teams in '95, helping to set the stage for both of his title runs by spreading out existing talent and making it more difficult for teams to provide their stars with a good supporting cast because a) you can't protect all of your rotation guys in an expansion draft and b) when you add an expansion team everyone else moves down one spot in the draft order to accomodate the expansion team.

 

[boone7247]

T

He lost to the Spurs, Pistons and Celtics. That Pistons team wasn't good? Come on. Paul Pierce wasn't good? Please. Dwight Howard?

There was one guy they drafted that has had even a mediocre career in Danny Green. The best pick they had was 10th after LJs rookie year and they took Luke Jackson. That was the chance to find a guy who could help. Then, when they had a chance to get him back, they go and draft Anthony Bennett and then they trade the perfect Pippen type of guy in Wiggins for Kevin Love. That's a long way from trading Polynice for Pippen and grabbing guys like Perdue, Armstrong and Grant when you do have a chance.

I think you are missing the argument. You are saying young LeBron was better than young Jordan because LeBron's teams were in the playoffs and even made a finals. I am saying I don't buy that argument because the East from top to bottom wasn't strong. Maybe there were 2 or 3 decent teams and then there was nothing after that. And for Jordan's young teams, well half the East had HOF players on their rosters. Plus two legit all time team in the Celts and Pistons. Not to mention the 76ers of that time.

The moves the Cavs made were bad and the moves the Bulls made were good. But the Wiggins trade was forced by LBJ so that is on him. I thought that was a perfect side kick for him. Someone to teach, and someone who would be able to take pressure off him. Kyrie, LBJ and Wiggins is a great three. This really doesn't weigh on the GOAT talk though, it ways on their ability to win titles. But LBJ gets to play in a era were movement is constant, while MJ played at the end of the Stars don't leave teams era. I remember when Barkley went from the 76ers to the Suns. Everyone was stunned. It just didn't happen very often.

 

[snowcraig2.0]

I think that with low periods here and there, skill and talent are mostly equal, relatively speaking, from era to era. The game certainly changes but there are always good players and bad teams and good players and bad players. It's just that right now, that's a lot more consolidated. The plus side is you get some guys on poor teams that have to do a lot and make a name for themselves.

I think there was a change in the mid to late 80's that mostly revolved around guys lifting a getting stronger. If you look at Jordan from 87 to Jordan in 93 you can really see this, Pippen as well. But that was all relative, guys in the 70s could have been bigger and stronger then as well.

 

[snowcraig2.0]

I also don't get the guys who say Lebron is better defender. Jordan was 1st team defense for basically half his career. Lebron's Cavs have been one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

 

[snowcraig2.0]

I'm not arguing the number of great players. When I say watered down I'm referring to the overall diluted talent pool thanks to expansion. There were great players, sure, but the league expanding by four teams from 88-89 and then again by two more teams in '95, helping to set the stage for both of his title runs by spreading out existing talent and making it more difficult for teams to provide their stars with a good supporting cast because a) you can't protect all of your rotation guys in an expansion draft and b) when you add an expansion team everyone else moves down one spot in the draft order to accomodate the expansion team.

I'd still say even immediately following those expansions it was more likely that on a given night you'd be playing a great player given the number of super teams you have now.

 

[HFCS]

I also don't get the guys who say Lebron is better defender. Jordan was 1st team defense for basically half his career. Lebron's Cavs have been one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Those are mostly young people pretending they watched MJ. I heard someone call MJ a horrible rebounder a couple weeks ago, he’s probably one of the better rebounders at shooting guard in nba history...again some kid who might as well be lying that he saw Babe Ruth play,

 

[jbindm]

I also don't get the guys who say Lebron is better defender. Jordan was 1st team defense for basically half his career. Lebron's Cavs have been one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

I've never heard that argument, but yeah. That's preposterous. Jordan was a lockdown defender (nine first team All NBA Defense appearances). Not that Lebron is a bad one (five first team All NBA Defense appearances). He's just not always engaged on that end. But he can smother an opponent when he wants to.

 

[cyfan964]

LeBron is the most gifted, talented, skilled and well rounded player of all time. Jordan is the superior competitor.

I don’t see how all of that is not crystal clear to anyone who actually watched both of their careers.

LeBron has a chance to absolutely dominate in total overall production and be greatest ever from that perspective (already closing in). I’m not saying he’s a poor competitor but he just has not consistently had Jordan’s competitive drive, he has at times and other times very obviously not. In my experience people who can’t see this are under 35 or clear Jordan “haters”.

This exactly.

 

[Dandy]

Lebron had to switch teams to win a title.

That is not his fault. That is the Cleveland management team's fault.

He was the #1 pick which means he joined a trash team. Then literally by himself he carried Cleveland into the playoffs which ruined their NBA Draft picks. He has had terrible coaches and terrible GMs both times in Cleveland.

Jordan got to play for Phil Jackson, arguably the best NBA coach ever. 11 rings!

Who's the best coach LeBron has had? Erik Spoelstra?

 

[Playboi Carti]

I also don't get the guys who say Lebron is better defender. Jordan was 1st team defense for basically half his career. Lebron's Cavs have been one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

The roster changes they made should help with that. LeBron is a good defender, he can guard 1-4 and sometimes a center. Also, LeBron is really good at chase down blocks.

 

[CloneGuy8]

 

[tre]

 

[CloneGuy8]

I do remember all those great Horry teams where he was their star player

 

[tre]

If the only argument is “rings,” well...Horry.

 

[CloneGuy8]

You don't see the difference between rings between two superstars, and a role player? C'mon man