B10/11 expansion...this guy gets it and absolutely nails it on the head

swarthmoreCY

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Aug 9, 2008
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Here nor there
I would never think the Big 10 would expand and not consider academics. I just think it would be part of the equation along with football and tv's. If it was only academics they would be after Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Johns Hopkins University and nobody would even know or care about the expansion. .

I cannot figure out why the relationship between money/academics and sports is so hard to understand. Think of it as an iterative process.

Step 1: Find schools that will bring the most money (and prestige) to the conference (think research)

Step 2: From the schools that will bring in the most money, select the ones that have sufficient sports programs (mainly football).
 

flipper

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Jan 22, 2010
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Tiggerhawk is ridiculous--he's missing more than half of what is going on here.

These are the things the Big Ten presidents and chancellors are looking at:
1. academics
2. research grants
3. media markets
4. local television ad revenue
5. basic cable rate increases in new BTN markets
6. athletic tradition

It's not all about football.
It's not all about television.
It's not all about research.

It's about the entire package. That's why Missouri, Nebraska, Rutgers, and Notre Dame have been given feelers.
 

rebecacy

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Jan 31, 2007
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I stopped reading at this point.


From Mizzou's website

"Research & related expenditures, FY 2009 - $320 million"


From Iowa State's website

"During FY 2009, Iowa State attracted $305.2 million in grants, contracts, gifts and cooperative agreements."


He was a little more accurate with Nebraska.

From Nebraska's website

"Total research funding at UNL increased nearly 13 percent to a record of more than $122 million this year."
go back and finish reading -- you are comparing apples (expenditures) with oranges (procured outside dollars)
 

isuno1fan

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Mar 30, 2006
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Tiggerhawk is ridiculous--he's missing more than half of what is going on here.

These are the things the Big Ten presidents and chancellors are looking at:
1. academics
2. research grants
3. media markets
4. local television ad revenue
5. basic cable rate increases in new BTN markets
6. athletic tradition

It's not all about football.
It's not all about television.
It's not all about research.

It's about the entire package. That's why Missouri, Nebraska, Rutgers, and Notre Dame have been given feelers.


Link from the B10/11 or above said schools announcing this?
 

trajanJ

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Sep 11, 2008
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You really think they are going to just come out and announce who they want? I think the Big 10 has been a step ahead of all the other conferences and I think they are a step ahead now. They see this 4 super conference idea as having real legs and they are going to be the first to select who they want. I could be wrong and I really hope that I am because the Big 12 doesn't have a whole lot of chips on the table. if they lose MU and NU most of the chips will be left with Texas and what they decide to do.
 

Clone83

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Mar 25, 2006
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For those who may have missed it (those who, like me, don't read all these threads) here is a related comment of mine from earlier yesterday (copied in full here below the link):

http://www.cyclonefanatic.com/forum/general-college-sports/90944-hn-2.html#post1719899

Didn't realize Chris is away, but since he is OWH sports has a bunch more today:

Sports - Omaha.com

I have not read all of this, and neither did I click on the HN link above. Neither do I have any inside information.

That said, I would just note that ISU is linked academically to some schools both currently inside the Big 10 and those being considered, as others have noted, and not just in a general sense as a land grant institution. One thing I like about the Hoiberg hire is that his father was an outstanding teacher in the sociology department at ISU and a dean in the college of agriculture before he retired. I knew he graduated from Nebraska. I didn't know until recently after Fred's hire, that his father in law (Fred's grandfather) was a basketball coach at Nebraska.

Earl Heady, possibly the most distinguished economist ever to work at Iowa State was also a graduate of the University of Nebraska. After World War II Heady developed the most extensive econometric models of US and world agriculture in existence, and founded the Center for Agricultural and Rural Development (CARD), a research institute that occupies nearly the entire 5th floor of Heady Hall. I am not sure how all of this is structured now, or today, but at one time ISU performed the quantitative analysis for all US farm bills. And for world trade negotiations and other special projects, such as the Uruguay round of GATT. In some ways this was a natural extension, or more accurately complementary, to the agricultural research impetus of ISU alum (and founder of Pioneer Hy-Bred) Henry A Wallace. The ABC computer was developed, its purpose was, to simplify computations then being performed in the stats lab by hand, related to such research efforts. Heady's econometric models were so involved that for some time (1960s?) the computer work had to be contracted outside of Iowa State.

Heady, unfortunately, suffered a stoke in the 1980s and died not long after at a relatively young age, or he might have been awarded a Nobel. The research at CARD continues, however, and those kinds of models are not developed overnight. International students in the department might not only contribute to the development of such models, but take what they learn back to their home countries after they graduate. I believe ISU is probably still significantly involved in research related to US and world farm policy, but that it is now and has for quite awhile been carried out in conjunction with the economics department at the University of Missouri - through what I believe is a joint venture (if you will), the Food and Agricultural Policy Research Institute (or FAPRI).

Anyway, I think it is great that Hoiberg is the new basketball coach, in and of itself, but also because what happens here can depend on what others think. Like his father he is an excellent representative of his alma mater. It doesn't hurt to have allies. I have long heard of how the Big Ten is more than just an athletic conference. If factors like academic research, and geographic location, matter more than media $$$$ - as others here have said - ISU would be an excellent candidate for the Big Ten.
 
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Clone83

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Mar 25, 2006
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I don't know why everybody wants to be in the Big 10. I see football as a sport that is going more and more towards the warm weather states. Ohio State is the only National Champion not located in a warm weather state since '97. I think recruiting Texas is going to be more and more important. If Mizzou goes to the Big 10 that recruiting will dry up and I think they will struggle greatly .

I know the Big 10 has more money but I see the Pac 10 and Big 12 getting together with a TV contract or actually forming their own conference if these other conferences go to 16 team super-conferences. As a KU fan I would much rather end up in that conference then the Big 10. Of course there's the chance the 4 super conferences actually happened and KU gets left out because of lack of tv's and that would really suck. Hard to say what's going to happen, but if the 4 super conferences would happen they could form their own championships and make tons of money, and that's what makes it a real possibility.

I feel a great affinity for the old Big 8. The current Big 12, not so much.

I think it is possible that ISU could be in a better position, football-wise, even if other Big 12 teams go to the Big Ten (and it does not), and even if it is somewhat geographically isolated as a result. What I fear though are variations of what others here have expressed. If ISU were part of the Big Ten, I don't think there is any question that that would be a more stable situation over the long haul. And consistent with this thread, there could be other benefits as well. It is my hope that the Big Ten is at least an option for Iowa State, if it is an option for other Big 12 schools.

In either the Big 12, or a revised Big Ten, I think ISU is going to have to do better with less.

An apt comparison is between a farmer who owns the best most productive land, and who makes money even if relatively derelict, versus one who farms more marginal land - and can only be more profitable through superior management. That said, I don't mean to discount the potential attractiveness of Ames and future growth, as both a college town and a place to do business.
 
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JUKEBOX

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Oct 27, 2008
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I feel a great affinity for the old Big 8. The current Big 12, not so much.

I think it is possible that ISU could be in a better position, football-wise, even if other Big 12 teams go to the Big Ten (and it does not), and even if it is somewhat geographically isolated as a result. What I fear though are variations of what others here have expressed. If ISU were part of the Big Ten, I don't think there is any question that that would be a more stable situation over the long haul. And consistent with this thread, there could be other benefits as well. It is my hope that the Big Ten is at least an option for Iowa State, if it is an option for other Big 12 schools.

In either the Big 12, or a revised Big Ten, I think ISU is going to have to do better with less.

An apt comparison is between a farmer who owns the best most productive land, and who makes money even if relatively derelict, versus one who farms more marginal land - and can only be more profitable through superior management. That said, I don't mean to discount the potential attractiveness of Ames and future growth, as both a college town and a place to do business.
Is it a possibility that ISU could be better without Mizzou and Nebby in the Big 12? I would think it would be easier to recruit and possibly give more power to ISU in the conference.
 

photomuse

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Nov 14, 2006
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A lot of research funding goes towards funding graduate students, and that cost varies heavily from school to school. For example, a graduate student salary might by 20k per year in ames and 50k per year in new york or san francisco. So you have to factor in some cost of living adjustments between each school. Probably a better judge of research prowess is number of graduate students on research funding.
 

CyForPresident

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Mar 28, 2006
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All I will add is that I have been told several times that the Agronomy Department brings in the most money for the college of Ag. If that is true, I have no idea, but I believe it. On our project alone we also cooperate with several Big 10 schools.

All I know is that Pioneer has its fingers all over that department.
 

GoShow97

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Oct 18, 2006
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Not sure who Tiggerhawk is from HN, but he has been posting this in a couple threads and it is right on the money. Absolutely owns John Miller in his "dollars and sense" thread.

Bottom line is the $$$ involved from a research/academics perspective absolutely dwarfs any revenue from an athletic perspective and will be THE primary indicator of who will be extended invites to the B10/11 if anyone.

Posted by Tiggerhawk on HN:

The fatal flaw in your extended summation of athletic budgets, television markets, etc, Mr Miller, is that the entire analysis seems to rest on assumptions that are lacking seriously in proportion.

Start instead with the most basic, fundamental controlling facts and the most obvious (usually explicitly stated) purposes of the players involved.

1. Most critical, the Big Ten is primarily a consortium of major research universities. It has made in clear repeatedly in the most explicit language that in any expansion the most important, essential criterion would be that a potential candidate for membership would be that it is a major researh university.

2. Mizzou is NOT one. Neither is Nebraska. (Ironically, Iowa State IS). It could not be more of an obvious political fact of life that NEITHER Mizzou or Nebraska will have a political climate any time in the near future where n the state legislature would reverse years of neglect of education (particularly post-secondary ed) to appropriate the billions of dollars necessary to bring either school un to the level of research facilities, programs, capabilities required by the BT of any new member.

3. The very reason why the Big Ten presidents will decide this summer to put possible expansion on their agenda definitely rules out Mizzou or Nebraska--or Syracuse, or Notre Dame, or Boston College, or just about any school not named Rutgers, Pitt or Texas. Necessarily, the BT presidents have remained discreetly silent on the subject of expansion...other than the announcement last Fall that the BT staff was going to gather further info and opinion on expansion, a statement that directly linked the prospect of the BT moving expansion ahead on the timetable because of the likelihood that the scope, scale & pace of federal funding of university-based research will likely accelerate post-passage of national health reform legislation.

One exception to the silence of the BT presidents has been Iowa's own Sally Mason: several months ago she participated in a forum at Penn State as the lone BT president in which BT expansion was debated (the forum subsequently was aired several times on the Penn Status weekly campus programming on BTN). Mason had to be discreet in her remarks, which were mostly generalities--but she made the point that the reason why expansion might be on the agenda soon was the anticipated significant increase in federal funding, and the understandable priority of the BT to position itself as favorably as it could both as a whole and as individual institutions in the competition for the greater federal contracts, grants, etc.

4. The huge sums of money you mention is TV & media contracts attendance, bowls, etc are significant, dwarf our imaginations...But they need to be viewed in accurate PERSPECTIVE.
A. The athletic budget at NO Big Ten school is much more than five percent--1/20th--of the total budget. It is about ten percent--1/10th--of the research budgeting. At out own U of Iowa, this past fiscal year, THREE researchers at the U of Iowa Hospitals & Clinics together brought in more funding than the ENTIRE athletic dept budget.
B. The essence, the far & away most significant amount you are referencing in regard to BT athletics, is the less than a quarter-billion dollars in television revenue shared by the Big Ten schools. That is a lot of moolah, no question about it. But again, PERSPECTIVE: that is about five percent--1/20th--of the research funds coming now to the BT & its member schools. It is about five percent--1/20th--of what the Big Ten hopes to receive as a lion's share of increased federal funding of university-based research.
C. However fascinating internet folk and the media find those large $$$$$$ of TV money for football, bowls, conference & NCAA hoops games & tournaments, etc...it nonetheless ought to be evident to anyone who glances at the comparative numbers to understand why the Big Ten is more interested (as example) the potential funds that Pitt, with its strong medical facilities, research capabilities, patents & contracts can bring to the BT consortium than a possibly more lucrative TV contract resulting from adding Nebraska.

It is the difference between millions of dollars, and billions of dollars. It is the difference between vast gains in the academic & research capabilities of the BT and its member schools--AND the greater prestige and access to further foundation, corporate & govt financial support that results--compared to some marginal improvement in its competitive situation relative to other athletic conferences.

Not suggesting that a forum like this whose purpose is to enhance our discussions of Hawkeye athletics ought to cvoncern itself instead with academic & research aspects of the U of Iowa...just that we should conduct our debates with an awareness of what the real parameters of Hawkeye sports are. And that means IMO as the absolute minimum a proud awareness of just how unique and dominant the Big Ten is compared with other merely-athletic conferences.

Sadly this just got blown out of the water. I was really hanging my hat on this but Nebraska just killed it.
 

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