What type of program is Iowa State

[Cat Stevens]

Completely agree, but many of the “Elite Prohm Defenders” have refereed in 2014-15 as a failure when comparing the last 8 years. Can’t have it both ways.

Yeah I’d keep projecting that made up straw man too in order to try to deflect reality.

He lost as a higher see in a 3-14 matchup. It was a bummer. The week before the won three games they had no business winning. Everyone knew there was an edge that team was tip toeing across. They got caught.

It gave Steve ******* Alford a sweet 16 birth keeping him employed long enough to give us the full levar ball experience.

Now tell me about all that depth Georges Sr year. Tell me about how it wasn’t a 7, and often times 6 man rotation. Tell me how it was obvious that Nader was a surefire NBA player. Tell me how you saw Matt Thomas being an elite level Euro player, when he barely got off the bench his sophomore year.

Tell me how effectively BDJ was utilized under Fred. He made an NBA roster. Did he improve playing for Fred?

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

The tournament makes or breaks teams and it leaves a lasting impression of the season. Look at the Hampton lost in the first round. We won the conference, got beat in the first round of the conference tourney, and then lost as a 2 seed. A great season that ended poorly.

As a fan we always want more when we have a good team, for whatever reason, we at ISU do not get that or when we are in position too, we have an injury that stops us or a poor performance like against OSU.

Look at Virginia last year, won the conference, won the league tourney and then became the first 1 seed ever to lose to a 16 seed. Just like them, until we break through and get to the final four or constantly at the elite 8 level, we are a good but not a great program.

 

[madguy30]

1. Big 12
2. ACC
3. SEC
4. Big East
5. American Athletic
6. Atlantic 10 (basketball)
7. WCC (Gonzaga pulls them up a ton)
8. Missouri Valley (a training ground for aspiring Power-6 schools)
9. Pac 12
10. Big 10

Make sure you don't use the NCAA tourney as your basis for this.

Or other things like results.

 

[madguy30]

Does anyone quite realize how flawed a single elimination tournament is in evaluating a season?

I believe too many fans are using 1 game as an indictment on the entire season.

True although it depends on how the season went vs. that one loss.

If Duke lost to UCF today it was a general fail vs. their season.

ISU's loss Friday night was a loss we'd seen before. Let the opponent dictate tempo, selfish play, bad shooting, hang around to go up with about 3 minutes left, only to let it slip and screw up key situations down the stretch.

There was nothing unusual about that from this group.

 

[EarthIsMan]

Completely agree, but many of the “Elite Prohm Defenders” have refereed in 2014-15 as a failure when comparing the last 8 years. Can’t have it both ways.

What makes you think that my post was only referring to this year? I sniff some defensiveness.

To that point, the tribalism on both sides of this debate is exhausting as is the seeming lack of objectivism.

 

[EarthIsMan]

True although it depends on how the season went vs. that one loss.

If Duke lost to UCF today it was a general fail vs. their season.

ISU's loss Friday night was a loss we'd seen before. Let the opponent dictate tempo, selfish play, bad shooting, hang around to go up with about 3 minutes left, only to let it slip and screw up key situations down the stretch.

There was nothing unusual about that from this group.

Exactly. Which begs the question, why are people surprised or disappointed by the result?

I think many fans got lulled into thinking this team was on this positive linear trajectory from the highs of the B12 tourney, while completely forgetting the realities of the seasons low points.

 

[rochclone]

Yeah I’d keep projecting that made up straw man too in order to try to deflect reality.

He lost as a higher see in a 3-14 matchup. It was a bummer. The week before the won three games they had no business winning. Everyone knew there was an edge that team was tip toeing across. They got caught.

It gave Steve ******* Alford a sweet 16 birth keeping him employed long enough to give us the full levar ball experience.

Now tell me about all that depth Georges Sr year. Tell me about how it wasn’t a 7, and often times 6 man rotation. Tell me how it was obvious that Nader was a surefire NBA player. Tell me how you saw Matt Thomas being an elite level Euro player, when he barely got off the bench his sophomore year.

Tell me how effectively BDJ was utilized under Fred. He made an NBA roster. Did he improve playing for Fred?

Matt Thomas, Burton and Nader improved immensely under CSP. I think 15-16 was a missed opportunity as very seldomly will you have an elite group of upperclassmen like that. I certainly would agree that the loss of Naz effected the depth although I think it also allowed Matt the opportunity to grow into a great player.
16-17 was an immense success with a 12-6 record and winning the conference tourney I would rate that year above 15-16. Last year was a train wreck that falls on both CFH and CSP.

His ability to get his players to respond to bad/disappointing losses is special. I actually think he manages egos pretty well. But the offensive philosophy is almost exclusively high ball screen drives me crazy. I was so pleased to set some of the double iso gap actions with LW in KC. They tried to run it once on Friday but it didn’t work with Conditt compared to MJ. He rarely ever looks for 2 for one opportunities. He seems to fully endorse the mid-range jumper which analytical we know it is a low percentage option.

It is my belief that some of those flaws above is what has led to the 16-25 record over the 4 years in games decided in OT or by 5 points or less. CSP is young in terms of a coaching life and I know he wants what is best for his players.

I know I’m defensive as hell regarding the CFH tenure because I lived through the 8 years of hell before it. In the end we are all Cyclone fans and just want the program to succeed. If CSP can get us to a Top 15-20 level consistently then we can pay him $4 million a year for all I care.

 

[ClonesFTW]

Using 2000 as a starting point, which one of these programs are you putting our resume ahead of?

1. Duke
2. NC
3. Virginia
4. Syracuse
5. Villanova
6. Oklahoma
7. Kansas
8. Gonzaga
9. Michigan
10. Michigan State
11. Oregon
12. Wisconsin
13. Purdue
14. Butler
15. Kentucky
16. Arizona
17. Ohio State
18. Florida
19. Florida St
20. Cincinnati
21. UCLA
22. Louisville
23. Tennessee
24. West Virginia
25. UConn

KenPom now has a "Program Rank" which features Iowa State at #35 since 2000 which seems about right. I would have guessed we were around #30 based on the rankings I previously put together in the quoted post.

 

[Kurttr]

I

Matt Thomas, Burton and Nader improved immensely under CSP. I think 15-16 was a missed opportunity as very seldomly will you have an elite group of upperclassmen like that. I certainly would agree that the loss of Naz effected the depth although I think it also allowed Matt the opportunity to grow into a great player.
16-17 was an immense success with a 12-6 record and winning the conference tourney I would rate that year above 15-16. Last year was a train wreck that falls on both CFH and CSP.

His ability to get his players to respond to bad/disappointing losses is special. I actually think he manages egos pretty well. But the offensive philosophy is almost exclusively high ball screen drives me crazy. I was so pleased to set some of the double iso gap actions with LW in KC. They tried to run it once on Friday but it didn’t work with Conditt compared to MJ. He rarely ever looks for 2 for one opportunities. He seems to fully endorse the mid-range jumper which analytical we know it is a low percentage option.

It is my belief that some of those flaws above is what has led to the 16-25 record over the 4 years in games decided in OT or by 5 points or less. CSP is young in terms of a coaching life and I know he wants what is best for his players.

I know I’m defensive as hell regarding the CFH tenure because I lived through the 8 years of hell before it. In the end we are all Cyclone fans and just want the program to succeed. If CSP can get us to a Top 15-20 level consistently then we can pay him $4 million a year for all I care.

I'm a strong CSP and CFH supporter. Not sure why any need to take sides. I agree with many of your points on CSP and areas for improvement - e.g., no 2for1s at ends of 1st half & high-ball screens almost exclusively (which work well when we have a PG who can handle the ball and score, which was more of a challenge this year). I'd add the strict substitution patterns. But, can you honestly sit back and not think of things you'd like to have seen Fred do differently? I'd vote some emphasis on defense and rebounding. We had great years under Fred but wouldn't have made the next step unless those became part of the equation. Yet, some just act as though perfection arrived under Fred, so Prohm and all others must be judged by that Strawman. That's ridiculous.

Looks like Prohm is ~40% in close games. Sure, would like that to be better. Would like fewer losses in Hilton. But, look how we've stepped it up on the road on our Top 10 victories. Sure, lost to OSU in round 1 this year. But, can't just ignore the team that lost to UAB. Both have had some success (Sweet 16 for each) in the tourney. Gotta look at the whole picture.

Again, I don't know why it's so hard to look at both coaches and be pleased. Neither is perfect, but both have done very well at ISU. Go ISU. Seems simple.

 

[surly]

I’d be more interested to see where people think KSU falls on this poll.

I'd put our two schools in the same range today, i.e. looking back just a decade. Both have solid programs, facilities, reputations, support, and coaches that will have them challengers for the B12 more often than not and NCAA qualifiers. Top 25 range one side or the other. Today, the blue bloods are Duke, UK, Ku, Michigan State, and UNC.

 

[CyJack2299]

Middling program on the back side of it’s greatest run in school history.

 

[Shawker]

We are a top 64 team. We didn't even make the dance last year. Until we go a couple rounds we are not a top 32 team.

Wow. I wouldn't even make that argument as an opposing fan if I was trolling.