***Official B12 Expansion/Implosion Thread 3.0???***

HFCS

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Wait, what? You mean the committee?

The makeup of the committee specifically. And also how the committee is selected and how the criteria seemed to evolve on a weekly or daily basis.

Ohio State was rolling toward the end of the year, don't want to turn this into a thread about doubting Ohio State or any Urban Meyer team. But glancing at the makeup of the committee it's pretty obvious we are last place in representation, last place with some separation. It's also pretty obvious that compared to the basketball tournament the selection criteria is highly subjective and was evolving frequently.

The BCS formula had 1/3 that was very objective and generally rewarded the depth and 9 game Big 12 schedule. The other 2/3 was formed by many 100s of voices, not just 13 individuals. That's gone now and was replaced with 13 people where our only voice is a no name TTech AD while other conferences have 2-3 voices including a few legend-type figures.

The push to go from an idiotic 2 team playoff for the NC to a 4 team playoff was a no brainer. The push to abandon the BCS formula for this ambiguous committee was incredibly dubious.

To me the big picture and instability talk starts there. The 'how' and 'why' of that.
 
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Gonzo

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Legit stories to me in order:
1. We have one member on the playoff committee, a TTech AD with no name recognition. Other conference have 2 or 3 including some college football legends. This is a clear disadvantage regardless of how many teams or CCG we have.

2. OU president talking about how adding two teams wouldn't hurt the $ divide like people said a few months ago.

The rest is fun but baseless speculation.

Looks like the PAC had 4, the SEC 2, the B1G 2, the ACC 1, the Big 12 1. Two seem unaffiliated with any P5 conference. Also, some of those conference connections are pretty thin. Osborne is pro-Nebraska but if they're not in the picture would you really consider him pro-B1G? He never coached in the B1G, and was an AD in the B1G for maybe a few minutes before retiring. The SEC's connections include a sportswriter with roots at Mizzou and a former HC at Vandy, who actually graduated from and coached at Clemson. I'd say the ACC has just as much, if not bigger gripe than the Big 12 given that they have 4 more teams but the same number of "representatives" and their guy is equally nameless as the TTU AD.

Not saying the Big 12 doesn't have a legit gripe. But no bigger than the ACC. Or even the SEC, which has 4 more teams and is the top conference in the country but has 2 no-names while the PAC has 4 including Haden, Willingham, and Rice.
 

weR138

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Looks like the PAC had 4, the SEC 2, the B1G 2, the ACC 1, the Big 12 1. Two seem unaffiliated with any P5 conference. Also, some of those conference connections are pretty thin. Osborne is pro-Nebraska but if they're not in the picture would you really consider him pro-B1G? He never coached in the B1G, and was an AD in the B1G for maybe a few minutes before retiring. The SEC's connections include a sportswriter with roots at Mizzou and a former HC at Vandy, who actually graduated from and coached at Clemson. I'd say the ACC has just as much, if not bigger gripe than the Big 12 given that they have 4 more teams but the same number of "representatives" and their guy is equally nameless as the TTU AD.

Not saying the Big 12 doesn't have a legit gripe. But no bigger than the ACC. Or even the SEC, which has 4 more teams and is the top conference in the country but has 2 no-names while the PAC has 4 including Haden, Willingham, and Rice.

This is exactly what Boren is talking about; more teams = more sway. It's why the Big 12 needs a CCG (with or without 12 members). As long as bigger leagues are considered more legitimate we'll be at a disadvantage regardless of how well TCU or BU perform. It also reinforces the desire of other leagues to continue to grow (thereby killing the Big 12/ACC in their current form).
 
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roundball

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All those things you link to were written in December/January of last season. By the end of last season I doubt anyone objective would've said the Big 12 was the best. It didn't have a single top-10 team in last year's final rankings, its highest was 13th and that was Oklahoma. It got 7 teams into the tourney which is impressive, but their record was 5-7 with none getting past the Sweet Sixteen. The Big 12 has been doing well the last few years and has had some good depth, but it's also up against long term perceptions that it's not at the level of other conferences. There hasn't been a Big 12/Big 8 team not named "Kansas" that's even played for a national championship since 1988.

It's a good thing we have a lengthy regular season and don't use a single-elimination tournament, in which fewer than half of the teams make it as far as they "should" according to their seed, to determine the best teams/conferences in college basketball.

Well, except for you, that is.
 

weR138

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The makeup of the committee specifically. And also how the committee is selected and how the criteria seemed to evolve on a weekly or daily basis.

Ohio State was rolling toward the end of the year, don't want to turn this into a thread about doubting Ohio State or any Urban Meyer team. But glancing at the makeup of the committee it's pretty obvious we are last place in representation, last place with some separation. It's also pretty obvious that compared to the basketball tournament the selection criteria is highly subjective and was evolving frequently.

The BCS formula had 1/3 that was very objective and generally rewarded the depth and 9 game Big 12 schedule. The other 2/3 was formed by many 100s of voices, not just 13 individuals. That's gone now and was replaced with 13 people where our only voice is a no name TTech AD while other conferences have 2-3 voices including a few legend-type figures.

The push to go from an idiotic 2 team playoff for the NC to a 4 team playoff was a no brainer. The push to abandon the BCS formula for this ambiguous committee was incredibly dubious.

To me the big picture and instability talk starts there. The 'how' and 'why' of that.

Agreed, it's absurd that a committee selects four teams from the P5 (plus G5).
 

HFCS

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Looks like the PAC had 4, the SEC 2, the B1G 2, the ACC 1, the Big 12 1. Two seem unaffiliated with any P5 conference. Also, some of those conference connections are pretty thin. Osborne is pro-Nebraska but if they're not in the picture would you really consider him pro-B1G? He never coached in the B1G, and was an AD in the B1G for maybe a few minutes before retiring. The SEC's connections include a sportswriter with roots at Mizzou and a former HC at Vandy, who actually graduated from and coached at Clemson. I'd say the ACC has just as much, if not bigger gripe than the Big 12 given that they have 4 more teams but the same number of "representatives" and their guy is equally nameless as the TTU AD.

Not saying the Big 12 doesn't have a legit gripe. But no bigger than the ACC. Or even the SEC, which has 4 more teams and is the top conference in the country but has 2 no-names while the PAC has 4 including Haden, Willingham, and Rice.

Your assessment of Osbourne couldn't be more wrong, but outside of that this is exactly the truth and exactly what I'm talking about.

The two major conferences that have recently been poached have one member with ties, neither a big name. The others have 2-4 with clear ties, some with huge names.

I lived near Lincoln for 6 years. Nebraska could join a conference tomorrow with teams that play on Mars and every Nebraskan, former player and former coach would be 1000% committed to that conference over Oklahoma, Baylor or TCU. Tom Osborne's Big 12 lean is exactly zero like every other Husker, their only lean is Husker and that means Big Ten now. Kind of silly to even bring up that Tom Osborne wouldn't favor Nebraska's conference. And yes I seriously doubt that all of these other members carry as much clout as Osborne or Alvarez. Anyone supporting a B12 team would swap out the no name from Tech in a heartbeat for Barry Switzer and Mac Brown which is the representation B10 has.

The point is we went from almost the most objective selection possible, to nearly the most subjective selection possible. There's no accountability for why 13 members, no accountability for who the 13 members are, and the selection criteria was changing week to week or day to day.

The fact that the two leagues who have recently been poached have less representation than the 3 leagues that poached them is CLEARLY the #1 indicator of conference instability in college football. We just finished year 1, over a 5 year period controversies will happen again and people will start talking about the obvious makeup of the committee and questioning that it's likely not just a coincidence.

Why the B12 and ACC commissioners aren't making a stink about it is beyond me, it's something real at least as opposed to message board rumor mill. The ACC may figure that FSU and Miami are the only programs they have that could sniff the playoff at some point and their name would get them in, they don't really have a consistent top 15 non-brand team like KSU/TCU/Baylor lately.
 
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cykadelic2

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The BCS formula had 1/3 that was very objective and generally rewarded the depth and 9 game Big 12 schedule. The other 2/3 was formed by many 100s of voices, not just 13 individuals. That's gone now and was replaced with 13 people where our only voice is a no name TTech AD while other conferences have 2-3 voices including a few legend-type figures.

The push to go from an idiotic 2 team playoff for the NC to a 4 team playoff was a no brainer. The push to abandon the BCS formula for this ambiguous committee was incredibly dubious.

To me the big picture and instability talk starts there. The 'how' and 'why' of that.

It should be made clear that if the BCS computer formula was used last season that Ohio St, FSU, Oregon and Alabama would have been selected.

The so-called committee bias for the final 4 teams selected is being blown out of proportion.
 

OceanMotion

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It's a good thing we have a lengthy regular season and don't use a single-elimination tournament, in which fewer than half of the teams make it as far as they "should" according to their seed, to determine the best teams/conferences in college basketball.

Well, except for you, that is.

Ya I mean come on guys... why on Earth would anyone use the postseason as a measuring stick? To hell with the NFL, NBA, and college football playoffs! To hell with the NCAA tournament! It means nothing compared to the regular season! Duh!
 

HFCS

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It should be made clear that if the BCS computer formula was used last season that Ohio St, FSU, Oregon and Alabama would have been selected.

The so-called committee bias for the final 4 teams selected is being blown out of proportion.

In reality TCU and Ohio State were razor close and there's no way to truly know (you don't know and nobody else does), TCU was slightly ahead of Ohio State in the closest simulation computer average people could come up with heading into the playoff. The last Harris and Coaches poll came out after the BCS selection so they were no doubt somewhat affected by the selection.

TCU was #4 in computer average: .86107
OSU was #5 in computer average: .81466

Their SOS was nearly identical in respected rankings despite rampant mistruths coming from the committee and ESPN. Baylor's SOS ranking was weaker than the other two, but the reports of TCU's schedule being worse than OSU's are an ongoing mistruth that started from ESPN and the committee the minute the top 4 were announced.

Then like I said the other 2/3 Harris/Coaches came out after the committee selection so there' s really no way of knowing that 2/3.

The point is even if the old system did have the same result, it's drastically less subjective and one or two people can't sway it dramatically.

I wish we didn't have to bring up OSU's quality because they were great at the end of the year, but I can't stand seeing the lies/mistruths spread, especially by Big 12 fans.
 
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Gonzo

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It's a good thing we have a lengthy regular season and don't use a single-elimination tournament, in which fewer than half of the teams make it as far as they "should" according to their seed, to determine the best teams/conferences in college basketball.

Well, except for you, that is.

One of the articles you linked to as proof was written December 5. ISU had played 6 games at that point.
 

Gonzo

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Your assessment of Osbourne couldn't be more wrong, but outside of that this is exactly the truth and exactly what I'm talking about.

The two major conferences that have recently been poached have one member with ties, neither a big name. The others have 2-4 with clear ties, some with huge names.

I lived near Lincoln for 6 years. Nebraska could join a conference tomorrow with teams that play on Mars and every Nebraskan, former player and former coach would be 1000% committed to that conference over Oklahoma, Baylor or TCU. Tom Osborne's Big 12 lean is exactly zero like every other Husker, their only lean is Husker and that means Big Ten now. Kind of silly to even bring up that Tom Osborne wouldn't favor Nebraska's conference. And yes I seriously doubt that all of these other members carry as much clout as Osborne or Alvarez. Anyone supporting a B12 team would swap out the no name from Tech in a heartbeat for Barry Switzer and Mac Brown which is the representation B10 has.

The point is we went from almost the most objective selection possible, to nearly the most subjective selection possible. There's no accountability for why 13 members, no accountability for who the 13 members are, and the selection criteria was changing week to week or day to day.

The fact that the two leagues who have recently been poached have less representation than the 3 leagues that poached them is CLEARLY the #1 indicator of conference instability in college football. We just finished year 1, over a 5 year period controversies will happen again and people will start talking about the obvious makeup of the committee and questioning that it's likely not just a coincidence.

Why the B12 and ACC commissioners aren't making a stink about it is beyond me, it's something real at least as opposed to message board rumor mill. The ACC may figure that FSU and Miami are the only programs they have that could sniff the playoff at some point and their name would get them in, they don't really have a consistent top 15 non-brand team like KSU/TCU/Baylor lately.

You know more about Osborne than me. That's why I posed it as a question. And while Rice had a lengthy history at Stanford with close ties to the football program there, she is a lifelong Bama fan. I think it's nearly impossible to put together a committee that will make everyone happy. I still question the notion that one member will have more sway than another, these people all have egos and I don't see any of them allowing themselves to be bulldozed.
 

HFCS

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You know more about Osborne than me. That's why I posed it as a question. And while Rice had a lengthy history at Stanford with close ties to the football program there, she is a lifelong Bama fan. I think it's nearly impossible to put together a committee that will make everyone happy. I still question the notion that one member will have more sway than another, these people all have egos and I don't see any of them allowing themselves to be bulldozed.

My whole thing is just I think the makeup of the committee could/should have more effect on our playoff future than whether we have 12 teams or a CCG. TCU and Baylor could have rematched and OSU could still have been picked over a 1 loss winner. A CCG doesn't do anything. OU/Texas being our champ or another team being undefeated is the only current path likely.

There's no denying the B12 and ACC have the least representation. Some of the Pac ties aren't as strong as say the 2 Big Ten ties, but there's no doubt they are more than covered.

The very idea of a 13 person committee is incredibly flawed compared to the old BCS ranking, currently it works great for the Big Ten and Pac 12, probably doesn't matter for SEC, doesn't matter for ACC that was generally last in computer average and is bad situation for the Big 12 that was permanently a top 3 conference in computer rankings over the past decade.
 

weR138

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It should be made clear that if the BCS computer formula was used last season that Ohio St, FSU, Oregon and Alabama would have been selected.

The so-called committee bias for the final 4 teams selected is being blown out of proportion.

At what point in time? Before or after the CCGs were played? If it was after the CCGs were played this just reinforces Boren's comment.
 

jbhtexas

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HFCS

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After the CCGs. See Simulated BCS table in this link dated 12/7/14:

http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...e-football-rankings-top-25-playoff-ap-coaches


What Boren comment is reinforced?

1/3 of the old BCS formula is not mentioned in that link. (Harris poll)
1/3 of it is tainted in that it came out after the selection committee released its own rankings, if you followed the polls closely it's hard to deny the selection committee's moves didn't affect the next coaches poll because the movement mimicked it so closely. (Coaches poll)
The 1/3 BCS computer component was an average of the top computer models with high and low scores removed. The Massey composite is the closest thing to it there and has TCU at 3rd. It's not exactly like the Massey composite but similar. I had never seen any computer average before CCGs, before bowls, after bowls, or after playoffs where TCU was not top 4.

Also Ohio State did not have a better SOS than TCU prior to the playoff, that is an oft repeated myth. Repeated so often Big 12 fans repeat it. They had very comperable SOS ratings. Baylor is the team that had a significantly lower SOS than the other two because they played a horrendous 3 game non-conf.

I'm not saying Ohio State wasn't a great team. But there is a LOT of misinformation out there about SOS and how TCU would have done with the old BCS formula.
 

HoopsTournament

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You are wrong, HoopsT! You're looking at the league bylaws not the GOR. The GOR agreement is a signed addendum by member schools - dated July 1, 2012 - to the television agreement made with/between the Big 12, ESPN and FOX. The Agreement lasts through June 30, 2025



From the bylaws: The Grant ofRights Agreement which will remain in full force and effect as to such WithdrawingMember and the Withdrawing Member shall continue to be fully bound under the Grantof Rights Agreement after Withdrawal for the remainder of the term of any Grant ofRights Agreement as if it remained a Member of the Conference, but the WithdrawingMember shall not be entitled to payment of any amounts or any other benefits arisingunder the Grant of Rights Agreement after Withdrawal.

I understand that fully. But when people say there is no termination clause they are misleading. A GOR is never meant to have a termination clause because rights don't have termination clauses. My point was that the contract (bylaws) do have a termination clause. The articles about there being no termination clause are completely misleading because of the conclusions that come from them.

Does your title for your house or car have a termination clause?