So the greatest of all time cannot be good enough to turn pro early? How "great" could they really be? Good thing you aren't a fan of a true blue-blood program. Can't imagine your list of the great Kentucky players.
Who is Iowa State's GOAT MBB player?
- Thread starter cyhawk55
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So the greatest of all time cannot be good enough to turn pro early? How "great" could they really be? Good thing you aren't a fan of a true blue-blood program. Can't imagine your list of the great Kentucky players.
Been an active, comprehending fan only since 1998 or so (I was 9 and just starting to take interest in the game) so undoubtedly my list will exclude some of the greats from the Johnny Orr days and beyond. I'll take care to include a few names that I constantly hear get tossed around here on CF, but I can't promise my list will include all of the old timers:
1. Fizer (responsible for sparking my interest in the game)
2. Grayer (never saw him at ISU, but all-time scoring leader)
3. Hoiberg (Don't remember his playing days too well, but numbers speak for themselves, plus he's the Mayor)
4. Hornacek (Obviously knew him more as a member of the Jazz)
5. Tinsley (Best PG in program history IMO)
6. White (cornerstone in turning program around)
7. Ejim (First Team All Big 12 and 2014 POY)
8. Willoughby (one of the first great players I remember at ISU)
9. Brackins (great player lost in a dark time)
10. Garrett (see Brackins)
11. Cato (see Willoughby)
12. Alexander (just to round out my list)
1. Fizer (responsible for sparking my interest in the game)
2. Grayer (never saw him at ISU, but all-time scoring leader)
3. Hoiberg (Don't remember his playing days too well, but numbers speak for themselves, plus he's the Mayor)
4. Hornacek (Obviously knew him more as a member of the Jazz)
5. Tinsley (Best PG in program history IMO)
6. White (cornerstone in turning program around)
7. Ejim (First Team All Big 12 and 2014 POY)
8. Willoughby (one of the first great players I remember at ISU)
9. Brackins (great player lost in a dark time)
10. Garrett (see Brackins)
11. Cato (see Willoughby)
12. Alexander (just to round out my list)
L
LincolnWay187
Guest
I love the three point shot. That and my age of when I started watching probably influence my picks(94-95). That said....
1. Hoiberg
2. Fizer
3. Royce White
4. Tinsley
5. Dedric
6. Cato
7. Hurl Beechum
8. Tyrus
9. Jake Sullivan
10. Babb
11. Kane
12. Hornacek
My honorable mentions: Julius, Kenny Pratt, and Clyburn
1. Hoiberg
2. Fizer
3. Royce White
4. Tinsley
5. Dedric
6. Cato
7. Hurl Beechum
8. Tyrus
9. Jake Sullivan
10. Babb
11. Kane
12. Hornacek
My honorable mentions: Julius, Kenny Pratt, and Clyburn
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1) Jeff Grayer
2) Marcus Fizer
3) Jeff Hornacek
4) Fred Hoiberg
5) Gary Thompson
6) Jamaal Tinsley
7) Melvin Ejim
8) Zaid Abdul-Aziz
9) Barry Stevens
10) Dean Uthoff
11) Loren Meyer
12) Victor Alexander
Morris and Niang will be on this list eventually.
2) Marcus Fizer
3) Jeff Hornacek
4) Fred Hoiberg
5) Gary Thompson
6) Jamaal Tinsley
7) Melvin Ejim
8) Zaid Abdul-Aziz
9) Barry Stevens
10) Dean Uthoff
11) Loren Meyer
12) Victor Alexander
Morris and Niang will be on this list eventually.
In twenty years we will look back at the talent Fizer played against and laugh at how weak it was. Athletes keep getting better. Teams keep getting better. The only way to compare players from different generations is how they fared against the competition of their own time. You talk about how nobody had weight-lifting regimens, but that also affects Zaid. He wasn't lifting frequently either, so the disadvantage those other players had was also a disadvantage for Zaid.
[video=youtube;h3FGi7Wwl2s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3FGi7Wwl2s [/video]
3 things stand out as I reflect back on the Grayer years.
1st, I was in Hilton the night Grayer came for his recruiting visit. If I remember correctly, Gary Thompkins was there the same night. Johnny stopped by they student section and asked us to welcome him when he came in. We even got to go talk with him at half time. He was so introverted!
2nd, I remember him hitting a HUGE jumper that put us over the top against a pretty good Drake team early in his Freshman year. We knew he was going to be a good one.
3rd, we were playing Nebby and it looked like one of their players was trying to provoke a fight with Hornacek to get him out of the game and Grayer stepped in and took care of business.
First, I think you start with the All Century Team. http://www.cyclones.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=875571 For those of you who don't remember that, it was announced in the 2007-2008 season. They gave an automatic nod to the 7 All American's up to that point, and going by that standard, excluding academic All Americans, you would have to give and automatic bid to Melvin Ejim and Deandre Kane who were 2nd and 3rd team last year. Monte and Georges have a shot at that going forward. There were some older guys on that list that few in this thread haven't mentioned or likley even knew anything about. If you consider that auto qualification, what two would you bump off the All Century team to replace with them? I would likely drop Jake Sullivan, even though he is one of my all-time favorite competitors as a Cyclone. After that it gets tougher, but I would probably drop Cato, but again a player I loved to watch. He was a true rim protector like we haven't seen for a long time until what we are seeing with McKay.
I'm just going to go with the first 12 names that pop into my head
Hoiberg
White
Kane
Ejim
Fizer
Tinsley
Hornacek
Abdul-Aziz
Meyer
Grayer
Stevens
Georges(because why the **** not?)
And although I didn't put them on the list, we will tell younger generations about guys like Morris, Scotty, Naz, and Babb too. I didn't think they were good enough to go on the list but I don't think they'll be swept under the rug and forgotten about either
Hoiberg
White
Kane
Ejim
Fizer
Tinsley
Hornacek
Abdul-Aziz
Meyer
Grayer
Stevens
Georges(because why the **** not?)
And although I didn't put them on the list, we will tell younger generations about guys like Morris, Scotty, Naz, and Babb too. I didn't think they were good enough to go on the list but I don't think they'll be swept under the rug and forgotten about either
I'll make it really simple: in a game between players 40 years ago and those of Fizer's college days, who would win? Simpler yet, the two played the same position; who would win a one-on-one game? Who would fare better against today's competition? Those are questions we can confidently answer without speculation.
The question was "Who is Iowa State's GOAT MBB player?", not "Who is Iowa State's GOAT MBB player, handicapping for a bygone era?" By today's standards, today's players are better. And yes, they'll be better 20 years from now.
The old Big 8 was stacked that year with talent. Danny Manning, who NEVER won a game in Hilton as a player, was player of the year in all of college basketball that year, and the 1st team All Big Eight included:
Jeff Grayer ISU
Mitch Richmond K-State (also 1st team all American)
Harvey Grant Oklahoma
Derrick Chievous Missouri
Hoiberg
Fizer
Tinsley
Willoughby
Grayer
Hornacek
Stevens
Thompson
Abdul-Aziz
Royce White
Ejim
Niang
Fizer
Tinsley
Willoughby
Grayer
Hornacek
Stevens
Thompson
Abdul-Aziz
Royce White
Ejim
Niang
I get PART of what you are saying. Big men didn't used to have the type of guard skills Georges brings to the table. Without the three point shooting line years back, few big men ever took deep outside shots so didn't develop the outside shooting skills valued today. Having said that, Barry Stevens used to back up to get open even before the 3 point line was added! He would have been a perfect wing in Fred's system (I remember Oklahoma coach Tubbs asying "All we saw was the seat of #35's shorts.") While we didn't have the weight lifting programs years ago, the mental make-up it took Don Smith (Abdul-Aziz) to lead the league in rebounding 3 years in a row would likely make him enough of a competitor to be successful today. Certainly Fizer dates back many years, but put his college body on the court today and he would still be dominant ( I will NEVER forget his posterizing Dwayne Schintzius...heh, we knew even back then that mullets should be outlawed!). Fizer didn't have Royce's handles, but he had a better jumper/fade away.
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Stats are facts whether you want to accept them or not that's up to you. Since you refused to talk about my Babe Ruth example because it's baseball, would you rather talk about Wilt Chamberlain? Is he not one of the Greatest Players of All Time just because he played in the 50s and had weaker competition? How about Jordan? Maravich?
To say a player can't be an All-Time great just because he played in a different era is ignorant. Anyway, I love this discussion. Much better than whether or not Matt Thomas can shoot threes.
I will grant you that Wilt is a freak that transcends generations. He was a taller, better Amare Stoudemire. But I really do believe that a lot of the players from that era wouldn't hold up as greats playing with today's generation.
Zaid is an ISU great for what he accomplished and I'm not trying to take that away. But I cannot be convinced that, in general, players from the 50s/60s are in the same class as those from the 90s and today, let alone better.
