Who were the Refs that screwed up the free throw debacle at Kansas yrs back?

[ChampFantana]

I was at that game as well. It was a two-shot foul. However, the ref that called the foul indicated to the official scorer that it would be 1 and 1. The PA guy announced that it would be 1 and 1. After handing the ball to Homan the ref signaled that it was 1 and 1. Obviously the refs screwed it up, but the ISU players and coaches have to take some responsibility as well. They had plenty of opportunities to realize that a mistake had been made and to speak up to the officials.

Somebody earlier in the thread asked for a picture showing Langford's foot on the line. I'd like to see that as well.

 

[ruxCYtable]

There is something else related to some rule that I can't remember clearly. It is something like "you can't take points off the board" or "you can't take points off the board once play has resumed (meaning Homan's second free throw)."

Granted, it still doesn't quite make sense, but was there some goofy rule (or interpretation of a rule) that some might understand to legitimize what happened?

This won't make it better but I can explain the correctable error rule to you...

The officials erroneously awarded Homan a 1-and-1 instead of two. KU rebounded the miss and went down and scored. This is a correctable error situation called "failure to award a merited free throw." Unfortunately, any scores that occur prior to the error being recognized cannot be canceled. So KU's three counted, Homan was awarded his second free throw and then the game continued from the point at which it was interrupted, which was a throw-in by ISU following the made KU three-pointer.

This rule has not been changed and it is still in place. If the officials are doing their jobs it should never happen. Obviously, they weren't.

 

[HFCS]

If the announcers in this clip had accurately portrayed what was happening, this youtube vid could have been viral. It's really one of the worst officiating screw jobs in sports when the final result was a razor close home KU win.

 

[HFCS]

I was at that game as well. It was a two-shot foul. However, the ref that called the foul indicated to the official scorer that it would be 1 and 1. The PA guy announced that it would be 1 and 1. After handing the ball to Homan the ref signaled that it was 1 and 1. Obviously the refs screwed it up, but the ISU players and coaches have to take some responsibility as well. They had plenty of opportunities to realize that a mistake had been made and to speak up to the officials.

Somebody earlier in the thread asked for a picture showing Langford's foot on the line. I'd like to see that as well.

The shooter and another ISU player STOPPED PLAYING AND LOOKED TO THE REFS IN COMPLETE CONFUSION, so it's not like ISU did nothing or KU was playing a fair game of legitimate basketball at that point when they were granted 3 bogus points.

I remember the game live on tv, regarding the other highly questionable 3 pointer, the KU shooter's feet are entirely inside the line, he's not 3 feet of space inside the line, but his entire body and feet are inside. It's not a questionable judgement call, it's one that would now always be a 2 pointer when they come back from break or something.

This sort of outrageous gift never happens for non-KU type programs. It happens for Michigan football, KU basketball, etc If you're a KU fan you probably think every team gets deadball points, it doesn't happen.

 

[ChampFantana]

The shooter and another ISU player STOPPED PLAYING AND LOOKED TO THE REFS IN COMPLETE CONFUSION, so it's not like ISU did nothing or KU was playing a fair game of legitimate basketball at that point when they were granted 3 bogus points.

I remember the game live on tv, regarding the other highly questionable 3 pointer, the KU shooter's feet are entirely inside the line, he's not 3 feet of space inside the line, but his entire body and feet are inside. It's not a questionable judgement call, it's one that would now always be a 2 pointer when they come back from break or something.

This sort of outrageous gift never happens for non-KU type programs. It happens for Michigan football, KU basketball, etc If you're a KU fan you probably think every team gets deadball points, it doesn't happen. Remember the team who got a fifth down? It was Nebraska football, it wasn't Kansas football.

The ref told Homan that it was one and one. He (or one of his teammates) should have spoken up. Of course, had Homan actually made the FT, it never would have been an issue in the first place.

There was never a picture that showed Langford's foot on the line. It was extremely close, but his foot wasn't on the line.

It's funny you bring up the 5th down (It was Colorado by the way, not Nebraska). How do you, as a member of the Missouri coaching staff, allow that to happen?

 

[HFCS]

I recall KU fans trying to justify the "fix" based on some rule (that has been changed since then). Can anybody recall how they do this?

Yeah the rule KU homers and Big 12 KU game fixers point to is that the only correction they can make is to go back and give Homan the free throw. I've never understood this interpretation of the rule or how it would be incorrect to take dead ball points off the board. By the same logic any time the ball goes through the hoop during half time it should put points on the board. Stopping play for half and stopping play for a free throw are the same thing. If a player keeps playing after halftime and scores a basket it is NEVER put on the board.

 

[HFCS]

The ref told Homan that it was one and one. He (or one of his teammates) should have spoken up. Of course, had Homan actually made the FT, it never would have been an issue in the first place.

There was never a picture that showed Langford's foot on the line. It was extremely close, but his foot wasn't on the line.

It's funny you bring up the 5th down (It was Colorado by the way, not Nebraska). How do you, as a member of the Missouri coaching staff, allow that to happen?

The most homer answer in the history of homer answers. You claim there's no image of it, ISU fans all thought his entire body was over the line when it happened live...but you magically are POSITIVE he was behind the line.

Then you blame Kansas getting three points during a dead ball on ISU players not shooting 100% from the free throw line. Thanks for exposing yourself as a typical and irrational JHawk fan. It was a screwjob of unparalleled proportions and you look like a conspiracy nut defending it.

 

[majorcyfan]

Really? I'm trying to think what would have been reasonable for Morgan to do at the moment. The legitimate score was 34-24. Does it make sense to make a protest that big? Seems like it should have been a bigger deal for Morgan, his assistant coaches, and grad assistants. But maybe not quite as big as you say.

As a manager my senior year in high school who kept stats, I would also watch the clock-keeper. I caught one guy managing the clock at the end of a game to give extra time to his home team because we were in the lead. After I called him out publicly on it and made it clear that lots of us were watching him, he actually flicked the switch early on the in-bounds pass and let time run out before the ball was even in play. Man, was he mad, but I did my job and kept my team from getting screwed.

You might ask the timekeeper at an ISU game against UNI at UNI, where the timekeeper didn't start the clock till the UNI PLAYER WAS WELL DOWN THE COURT NEAR THE HALF COURT LINE. UNI was behind and this was their way to catch up. Thinking this was mid 80's, ISU took bus loads to one of the few games held in the Dome. UNI used an illegal high school ref , to boot, I later found out from a relative who knew the facts of the ref. Sounds crazy, but I was there at the game and ISU fans were yelling in the Dome to start the clock, cause we could see what was going on, with the clock not starting on time, twice it happened. Because we were on the bus going home, we never heard any comments by Johnny Orr on the radio about what his thoughts were on the late starting clock.

 

[VeloClone]

I was at that game as well. It was a two-shot foul. However, the ref that called the foul indicated to the official scorer that it would be 1 and 1. The PA guy announced that it would be 1 and 1. After handing the ball to Homan the ref signaled that it was 1 and 1. Obviously the refs screwed it up, but the ISU players and coaches have to take some responsibility as well. They had plenty of opportunities to realize that a mistake had been made and to speak up to the officials.

Somebody earlier in the thread asked for a picture showing Langford's foot on the line. I'd like to see that as well.

You guys can attack me if you want, but I have said pretty much every since this happened that it was clearly a huge FUBAR by the officials; however, the ISU players should have stepped into the lane or called timeout if they had to before the ball was handed to Homan to get it cleared up rather than letting him shoot a 1 and 1 that should have been a 2 shot foul. The KU players were alert and played it like a 1 and 1. The rule that let it stand was dumb, but that was the rule. I generally hate it when people use this term as it is way overused, but I'm using it here: That error by the officials was inexcusable.

EDIT: I've also been curious for years if Giddens had missed that shot and the rebound had gone out of bounds - ISU ball - and they had then corrected the FT error if in Phog Allen they would then have awarded the ball to ISU as the play that had occured "had to stand". I doubt highly that the officials - especially one or two of them named - would have had the balls to do that on KU's home court.

I'm certain that no one will ever see a picture or video of Langford's shot. If he was clearly inside the line as John and Eric claimed he was everyone made sure that any lasting evidence of that never saw the light of day.

 

[HFCS]

You might ask the timekeeper at an ISU game against UNI at UNI, where the timekeeper didn't start the clock till the UNI PLAYER WAS WELL DOWN THE COURT NEAR THE HALF COURT LINE. UNI was behind and this was their way to catch up. Thinking this was mid 80's, ISU took bus loads to one of the few games held in the Dome. UNI used an illegal high school ref , to boot, I later found out from a relative who knew the facts of the ref. Sounds crazy, but I was there at the game and ISU fans were yelling in the Dome to start the clock, cause we could see what was going on, with the clock not starting on time, twice it happened. Because we were on the bus going home, we never heard any comments by Johnny Orr on the radio about what his thoughts were on the late starting clock.

So glad we're done with @UNI. I understand and accept that KU is going to calls even though it's not right, especially @KU. But t was mind numbing to me that we had often had to battle the same level of fix involved with a game against an MVC team every other year, there's no reason for that. Fans on this board don't want to admit it but Iowa @UNI last year was an absolute joke, fix was clearly in.

Outside of KU and @UNI, I really can't remember another ISU basketball game where I think there's more at play than just honest mistakes sometimes on the verge of incompetence. Even the "blarge" call against MSU could have been incompetence, it's not like we play MSU dozens of times to see the clear pattern.

 

[ruxCYtable]

UNI used an illegal high school ref , to boot, I later found out from a relative who knew the facts of the ref.

You have said this before and it is beyond ridiculous. What exactly do you mean by the term "illegal high school ref"? The schools don't hire the officials in college basketball, the conference does. Any official who worked the game was hired and approved by the league to work the game. It is possible it was some kind of emergency sub situation, but there is no such thing as "UNI used an illegal high school ref."

Please enlighten me as to what your "relative who knew the facts of the ref" knew exactly. Thanks.

 

[Cycsk]

This won't make it better but I can explain the correctable error rule to you...

The officials erroneously awarded Homan a 1-and-1 instead of two. KU rebounded the miss and went down and scored. This is a correctable error situation called "failure to award a merited free throw." Unfortunately, any scores that occur prior to the error being recognized cannot be canceled. So KU's three counted, Homan was awarded his second free throw and then the game continued from the point at which it was interrupted, which was a throw-in by ISU following the made KU three-pointer.

This rule has not been changed and it is still in place. If the officials are doing their jobs it should never happen. Obviously, they weren't.

This has been the missing fact in my understanding. It isn't that the refs made a mistake by letting KU grab a rebound and go down court and shoot. The error was in announcing it as a 1&1 instead of a 2.

So, if we had later grabbed a rebound on a 2 shot foul and run down and scored, it wouldn't have counted if the refs had correctly announced it as a 2 shot foul.

Still seems like an error that can so easily be corrected should have been. Seems like the NCAA often isn't about refs making good judgment calls, but about rigidly enforcing rules.

Would any self-respecting coach argue to keep those points on the board? I'm trying to imagine what that would be like during the game. Hey ref, we know we just got a really cheap one, but that's the rule, so nah nah, you have to leave it on the board.

And again, the main finger of blame points back to our players and coaches for letting it happen. We have to be our own guardians during the game. We probably didn't even have to call a timeout, but could have demanded an official's timeout because it happened before a free throw attempt.

 

[ruxCYtable]

You guys can attack me if you want, but I have said pretty much every since this happened that it was clearly a huge FUBAR by the officials; however, the ISU players should have stepped into the lane or called timeout if they had to before the ball was handed to Homan to get it cleared up rather than letting him shoot a 1 and 1 that should have been a 2 shot foul. The KU players were alert and played it like a 1 and 1. The rule that let it stand was dumb, but that was the rule. I generally hate it when people use this term as it is way overused, but I'm using it here: That error by the officials was inexcusable.

EDIT: I've also been curious for years if Giddens had missed that shot and the rebound had gone out of bounds - ISU ball - and they had then corrected the FT error if in Phog Allen they would then have awarded the ball to ISU as the play that had occured "had to stand". I doubt highly that the officials - especially one or two of them named - would have had the balls to do that on KU's home court.

I'm certain that no one will ever see a picture or video of Langford's shot. If he was clearly inside the line as John and Eric claimed he was everyone made sure that any lasting evidence of that never saw the light of day.

It was a royal **** up by the officials. IMO, the officials should be able to go to the replay, wipe out the score and put the time back on the clock. Maybe they can do that now, I don't know. Someone referred to the rule being changed for NCAA. Someone might ask, well what if the error isn't recognized until 10 minutes later? Are you going to wipe all the scores out and go back to that point in the game? No. The error has to be recognized before or during the first dead ball after the error so the most you'd be wiping out would be one score (if you changed the rule to truly allow the officials to fix it).

To answer your other question, if Giddens had missed and it had gone out of bounds...Because there was a change of possession they would have given Homan his free throw and it would have been ISU's ball again at the other end (because point of interruption was Giddens' missed shot). If there had not been a change of possession, i.e. if ISU had rebounded the miss, they would have lined everyone up for Homan's second FT and resumed the game from that point.

 

[Cycsk]

It was a royal **** up by the officials. IMO, the officials should be able to go to the replay, wipe out the score and put the time back on the clock. Maybe they can do that now, I don't know. Someone referred to the rule being changed for NCAA. Someone might ask, well what if the error isn't recognized until 10 minutes later? Are you going to wipe all the scores out and go back to that point in the game? No. The error has to be recognized before or during the first dead ball after the error so the most you'd be wiping out would be one score (if you changed the rule to truly allow the officials to fix it).

To answer your other question, if Giddens had missed and it had gone out of bounds...Because there was a change of possession they would have given Homan his free throw and it would have been ISU's ball again at the other end (because point of interruption was Giddens' missed shot). If there had not been a change of possession, i.e. if ISU had rebounded the miss, they would have lined everyone up for Homan's second FT and resumed the game from that point.

And if we had gone for a steal and knocked the ball out of bounds, would it have been given to KU after Homan's second free throw?

And what if Homan misses the second free throw? Does the rebounder get to keep the ball? Or does it go back to KU who had it when the dead ball occurred?

I'm getting a headache!

 

[HFCS]

And if we had gone for a steal and knocked the ball out of bounds, would it have been given to KU after Homan's second free throw?

And what if Homan misses the second free throw? Does the rebounder get to keep the ball? Or does it go back to KU who had it when the dead ball occurred?

I'm getting a headache!

If ISU had got the rebound immediately, then drained a 3, our JHawk friend here and the entire Phog Allen Field House would have supported ISU keeping that 3, then taking our second free free throw. They all embraced it so well, I'm sure that result with the same standards would have been popular with them, their fans, and the Big 12 office.

 

[Cycsk]

If ISU had got the rebound immediately, then drained a 3, our JHawk friend here and the entire Phog Allen Field House would have supported ISU keeping that 3, then taking our second free free throw. They all embraced it so well, I'm sure that result with the same standards would have been popular with them, their fans, and the Big 12 office.

Okay, so let's start from the deadball after KU makes the 3. The refs give the ball to Homan for his second free throw. He misses. We get the rebound and make a 3. There is now another deadball. Does KU get the ball because we just made a shot? Or do we get the ball because KU previously made a shot?

Probably would just have a jump ball (or use the possession arrow) because basketball has an in-game tie-breaker tool.

 

[ruxCYtable]

Keep in mind I am quoting you the high school rule but I think at the time they were the same...

And if we had gone for a steal and knocked the ball out of bounds, would it have been given to KU after Homan's second free throw?

Yes. In the strictest sense, ISU knocking it out would have constituted a change of possession. You would clear the lane, award Homan his second FT, and resume the game from where ISU knocked the ball out. In this situation, however, I think most officials would probably have ignored the rule and said let's just go with the second FT. (If he made the FT, this would also bring up the odd situation of KU not being able to run the baseline after the make because the POI was an out of bounds play.)

And what if Homan misses the second free throw? Does the rebounder get to keep the ball? Or does it go back to KU who had it when the dead ball occurred?

It depends. If there was a change of possession, you'd resume from the point of interruption (whoever had the ball would get it after the FT) and you'd shoot the FT with no one on the lane. If there had not been a change, you would line everyone up like normal and resume the game with the second FT.

I'm getting a headache!

 

[ruxCYtable]

Okay, so let's start from the deadball after KU makes the 3. The refs give the ball to Homan for his second free throw. He misses. We get the rebound and make a 3.

This would not happen. Because there was a change of possession (KU got the rebound and scored) there would be no one on the lane for Homan's second FT. The game is not being resumed from the 2nd FT it is being resumed after KU's make.

And yes, I now have a headache too.

 

[ChampFantana]

The most homer answer in the history of homer answers. You claim there's no image of it, ISU fans all thought his entire body was over the line when it happened live...but you magically are POSITIVE he was behind the line.

If ISU fans think it was clear cut, then they're wrong. His entire body (not that body position matters, it's about the feet) was not over the line.

 

[VeloClone]

To answer your other question, if Giddens had missed and it had gone out of bounds...Because there was a change of possession they would have given Homan his free throw and it would have been ISU's ball again at the other end (because point of interruption was Giddens' missed shot). If there had not been a change of possession, i.e. if ISU had rebounded the miss, they would have lined everyone up for Homan's second FT and resumed the game from that point.

You missed my point. I know what the rules state should happen; I just seriously doubt that the officials - especially that group in that environment - would have had the balls to do that rather than letting everyone rebound as normal after the second FT.

If they had given the ball to ISU after a KU missed 3 and a Homan FT, there very well might have been a triple lynching in Lawrence that day.