Who supports Roe vs. Wade?

[Skyh13]

Personhood at conception is a religious belief, not a provable biological fact.

And what makes personhood at 1 or 2 a biological fact? Or perhaps even at 20?

I think therefore I am? That's not particularly biological.

People can believe what they want, but even as a scientific person in the engineering field, I have yet to ever be convinced in a scientific manner that you can declassify a developing human in the womb as "not human".

Besides, most of the things that we use to truly separate humans as being special apart from just animals are mainly philosophical things.... thinking, logic, reasoning... and you can't run a biological test and prove the existence of logic. Besides, I'm sure all the 2 month olds aren't exactly proficient in effective logical and cognitive abilities. And yet, we don't question as to whether they are human or not. Were they not just developing not so long earlier? Are they not still developing? Where do we find the right to say that at the time this baby's cells were multiplying, that it was never actually human?

 

[alaskaguy]

And what makes personhood at 1 or 2 a biological fact? Or perhaps even at 20?

I think therefore I am? That's not particularly biological.

People can believe what they want, but even as a scientific person in the engineering field, I have yet to ever be convinced in a scientific manner that you can declassify a developing human in the womb as "not human".

Besides, most of the things that we use to truly separate humans as being special apart from just animals are mainly philosophical things.... thinking, logic, reasoning... and you can't run a biological test and prove the existence of logic. Besides, I'm sure all the 2 month olds aren't exactly proficient in effective logical and cognitive abilities. And yet, we don't question as to whether they are human or not. Were they not just developing not so long earlier? Are they not still developing? Where do we find the right to say that at the time this baby's cells were multiplying, that it was never actually human?

Mormon and some Fundamentalist churches believe in personhood at conception; Judaism holds that it begins at birth and abortion is not murder; ensoulment theories vary widely within Protestantism. The religious community will never reach consensus on the definition of a "person" or when abortion is morally justified.

The facts are that there is no scientific consensus as to when human life begins. It is a matter of philosophic opinion or religious belief. Human life is a continuum---sperm and eggs are also alive, and represent potential human beings, but virtually all sperm and eggs are wasted. Also, two-thirds of human conceptions are spontaneously aborted by nature.

 

[Angie]

I find it interesting then that the man has no right to tell the woman what to do with her body but yet it is okay for the woman to end the life of the baby. If the woman doesn't want a baby then don't have sex. How hard is that to figure out? Her right to choose what to do with her body is when she says no to sex. By choosing sex the woman must be ready for the possibilites that come along with it. It is not that hard. Don't want baby, don't have sex.

This is a little overly simplistic. In an ideal situation, it's not just the woman (as you say here) who makes the decision about what to do with her body - any woman I know would consult with the father (if possible). However - how many of these children are born to (or aborted by) inner-city (or low-income) women who don't have the man around to take responsibility? It's pretty easy to demonize women in the issue of abortion, but there are always two people who played a part in the conception. Telling just the woman "don't want baby, don't have sex" is more than a little misogynistic, since the same advice would never be given to a man (who are encouraged to sleep with as many women as possible and not look back).

Putting a baby up for adoption is, of course, a wonderful thought. As someone who is going through fertility treatment and currently taking a hard look at adoption, I am grateful for the people who care enough to do that. However, I think it is important to mention to all who would have no way of knowing how much trauma a woman's body goes through while pregnant, and the amount of responsibility she SHOULD undertake for that fetus. If a woman doesn't have enough money to support her own child, however, how improbable is it that she is going to go through the proper measures of prenatal appointments, vitamins, medicines, tests, nutrition, and all of the other things that she should do to produce a healthy baby they won't even keep? Abortion is an awful thing to think about, and nobody likes the idea (so "pro-abortion" is a very unlikely stance for someone to take). Unfortunately, however, the welfare system and adoption agencies would likely be overrun with malnourished, unhealthy babies if it weren't legal, and (purely from a fiscal standpoint) it would be an extra burden on taxpayers to pay for medical bills, etc.

While abortion is a repugnant thought, I also find it disgusting to watch the women I know who CAN get pregnant smoke and drink their way through their unplanned pregnancy while some of us (who want to be good parents) don't get that option. It may not be a method we like, but abortion IS a form of taking responsibility - it's saying that you know that you're not able to do right by a baby (born or unborn), and acting accordingly.

Let's get back to the Cyclone talk!! This stuff is depressing! :rofl8yi:

 

[Cyclone62]

This is a little overly simplistic. In an ideal situation, it's not just the woman (as you say here) who makes the decision about what to do with her body - any woman I know would consult with the father (if possible). However - how many of these children are born to (or aborted by) inner-city (or low-income) women who don't have the man around to take responsibility? It's pretty easy to demonize women in the issue of abortion, but there are always two people who played a part in the conception. Telling just the woman "don't want baby, don't have sex" is more than a little misogynistic, since the same advice would never be given to a man (who are encouraged to sleep with as many women as possible and not look back).

While abortion is a repugnant thought, I also find it disgusting to watch the women I know who CAN get pregnant smoke and drink their way through their unplanned pregnancy while some of us (who want to be good parents) don't get that option. It may not be a method we like, but abortion IS a form of taking responsibility - it's saying that you know that you're not able to do right by a baby.

Here's the biggest thing that divides the masses on this issue. Women, in general, have an ethic of care for all parties involved (baby included), and men take an ethic of justice. Men will say "Is X justifiable?" or "Killing a baby isn't justifiable." Women (and feminists) on the other hand, will say "If this pregnancy isn't the best for the baby, it doesn't deserve that kind of abuse/life." It's interesting to see that that is exactly what is going on in this thread. I forget the name of who had this psychological theory, but it's fairly blunt here.

 

[clones11]

for the most part women have all of the power when it comes to sex. if they dont want it it doesnt happen (rape is bull**** and shouldnt happen so im not including it althought my friend, a guy got raped by a chick while pretty much passed out but what ever) but seriously as much as guys wanna think we have power, women are the most powerful people on the planet because all men want is sex we are just born that way and if a girl cant say to sex than she is responsible for the mistakes that she makes. and guys have just as much of a ligitamate intrest in the life of the child as the women does so we should have a choice in whether the baby is aborted or not but we don't... im not a doctor or anything but last time i checked it took both a male and a female to make a baby

 

[Cyclone62]

for the most part women have all of the power when it comes to sex. if they dont want it it doesnt happen (rape is bull**** and shouldnt happen so im not including it althought my friend, a guy got raped by a chick while pretty much passed out but what ever) but seriously as much as guys wanna think we have power, women are the most powerful people on the planet because all men want is sex we are just born that way and if a girl cant say to sex than she is responsible for the mistakes that she makes. and guys have just as much of a ligitamate intrest in the life of the child as the women does so we should have a choice in whether the baby is aborted or not but we don't... im not a doctor or anything but last time i checked it took both a male and a female to make a baby

Just a quick question for you, but how old are you? I've turned down sex as much as my significant other has, so I don't see how men "want" sex more than women do. I agree that if a woman has sex, she's responsible, but also at the same level the man is. With the issue on if a man has a choice in the matter, they actually do. They have as much right as the women do. The men can't cancel a women's choice though, like a women can't cancel a man's choice at getting a vasectamy. The biggest difference is that men do not "incubate" the baby, while women do, so they can make a choice both before and after the act of intercourse.

 

[darts180]

for the most part women have all of the power when it comes to sex.

I don't know how old you are, but I will let you in on a little secret........it's not just sex that women have all the power in. Although, I think their dominance of control in that area may spill over into other facets of life.


As an aside, I don't know if anyone on here has ever checked out the t-shirt hell website. They have a section for babies, and one of the shirts says "now that I'm out, I'm pro-choice." Not to poke fun at peoples core heartfelt beliefs, just ironic.

The shirt that I think is the most relevant, which I think I will eventually get my daughter says "my IQ is higher than the president's." The problem is that he's almost out of office, and so the shirt loses all relevancy.:biggrin9gp:

 

[superfan]

This is a very personal issue for me, so I'm going to do my best to stay relaxed, but forgive me if I get a little curt. I'll address a couple of topics brought up in this thread. And for the record, I am an independent centrist.

"Every child should be a wanted child."

My biological parents didn't want me. Does that mean that I should have been aborted? I think your views on abortion are a little different when you get up every morning and look in the mirror and think, "I could have been a pile of parts rotting in a dumpster in La Crosse." It's easy to have a view when there's no face behind it, but I sincerely doubt anybody would have the intestinal fortitude to walk up to me, look me in the eyes, and tell me I don't deserve to live because my parents decided on adoption over abortion.

"People or government shouldn't force moral standards on people"

Isn't that the foundation of the justice system? What if I believe that I should be able to take revenge on anybody who's ever hurt my feelings? If I went out and started butchering people, I'd be labeled as a psychotic, locked up, and in some states, executed, because I'm doing something other people believe is immoral. How is punishing people for theft, rape, or murder not enforcing a moral standard? The only difference is there's a consensus moral belief that it's wrong to steal/rape/kill someone.

On whether the father should have an input...

Why not? The child is (literally) half his by virtue of genetics.

And for the record, I'm not hardcore anti-abortion. I actually consider myself "pro-choice" I believe a woman has a choice whether or not to have sex with the guy, she has a choice to be on the pill, she has a choice to make him wear a condom, and she has a choice to use a morning-after pill. That's FOUR choices. If one gets forceably taken away (rape/incest), I can justify an abortion. For the record, the first brainwaves occur at around 40 days, and the heart starts beating around 25 days. Just because someone is worried they might not be able to provide for a child is no justification to kill it. Give the child to someone who wants it, or God forbid, do the American thing, tighten your belt, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and give it your best shot. I'd rather give the child a fighting chance than what could be called a mercy killing, but that's just IMO.

My issue is with people who think they deserve a mulligan in life. They want to kill their child because "it was an accident" or it's an inconvenience (financial or otherwise) for them. How is that fair? If I get plowed next weekend and kill somebody while drunk driving, should I get off scot-free because I didn't mean to run over them or because they were inconveniently in a crosswalk? This is an issue of causality for me. Cause and effect. Action and reaction. Decision and consequence. Causality is the only absolute truth in this world, and it isn't being given it's respect. The problems of today stem from the fact that we as a society don't want to take responsibility for our actions. We want somebody else to take care of it, somebody to save us, or a freebie from the government. Whatever happened to self-reliance?

Whew...done venting.

 

[Skyh13]

Mormon and some Fundamentalist churches believe in personhood at conception;

I just felt like pointing this out... the Catholic Church believes in personhood at conception, as well.

No argument or anything, just informing.



BTW, I'm making the assumption that you aren't including Catholicism under the category of "Fundamentalist"..

 

[CyPlainsDrifter]

I guess the thing I don't understand, is this: The main discussion by the pro-abortion crowd is that life starts at birth, so it is OK to abort a "fetus"......... yet people can get charged for murder of the unborn, like in the current Jessie Marie Davis case. How do the law makers jive those two things in their minds?

This isn't really a pro v. con point ..... FWIW.

 

[Cyclone62]

My biological parents didn't want me. Does that mean that I should have been aborted? I think your views on abortion are a little different when you get up every morning and look in the mirror and think, "I could have been a pile of parts rotting in a dumpster in La Crosse." It's easy to have a view when there's no face behind it, but I sincerely doubt anybody would have the intestinal fortitude to walk up to me, look me in the eyes, and tell me I don't deserve to live because my parents decided on adoption over abortion.

Just a question to ponder. It sounds like your biological parents were mature and selfless enough to protect you from harm while still in the womb (ie: not abusing/using drugs and alcohol). Would the feeling be the same if you were born into a life with drug addiction and/or continual health deficiencies (bad heart, organs not fully formed, etc.) from drug use? Personally, I can't answer whether I would want that life or not. Part of me would rather not live that life, and part of me says I would overcome it.

 

[everyyard]

I like my wifes response to the doctor when AFP tests were offered.

WIFE: So the AFP is testing for abnormalities?

Doctor: Yes primarily congenital maladies.

WIFE: So is the test accurate?

Doctor: AFP is 90% ACCURATE but there is a high false positive rate.

WIfe: So if the test is positive then I am not 100% sure somthing is wrong?

Dr. : Thats right..but if we do find somthing you can terminate.

Wife: Terminate?

Dr.: Yes...end the pregnancy

Wife: Ohhhh OK doc...well heres my idea then...since the test isn't 100% accurate lets just wait until the baby is born then we will know for sure...and if somthing is wrong...well...then you can kill it.

Dr.: No that would be Murder of a Human being.

Wife: SO when does human life begin?

Dr.: well ....um ahem ..Look I don't know..

Wife: then how do you know when its OK to do an abortion..

Dr.: Ok I get the picture we'll forgo the test

WIfe: GREAT!

Of course no one aborts simply based on the AFP test results...they prompt you to look further with amniocentesis which is looking at gentetics and is 100% correct for things like down's and other problems...then, yes some people would choose to abort. You guys simplify these things way too much. There are other reasons for the afp test...how about someone who wants to educate themselves ahead of time to prepare for a special needs child. A good screening test by nature must include some false positives or risk missing some true positives. You always design a good screening test to pick up more positives than there actually are rather than miss more true positives in favor of more accurate true negatives. Also, if you are going to just allow for rape...does it have to be proven rape??? What prevents all women desiring abortions from just telling the doctor they were raped. If you have to prove it that gets pretty sketchy too doesn't it.

 

[brianhos]

A baby is formed when a sperm and egg unite so to me that is when life starts. Since that is where a baby's life starts, then why do you have to have brain waves to justify killing the baby???

So to you, an IUD is murder? That form of birth control will not allow the embryo to attach, but it is indeed fertalized.

 

[brianhos]

The shirt that I think is the most relevant, which I think I will eventually get my daughter says "my IQ is higher than the president's." The problem is that he's almost out of office, and so the shirt loses all relevancy.:biggrin9gp:

With the current group of politicians, I think it is still a relatively accurate statement.

 

[clones11]

clone62 im 21 and just like to throw a wrench into the gears to get a reaction...it worked

 

[everyyard]

So to you, an IUD is murder? That form of birth control will not allow the embryo to attach, but it is indeed fertalized.

Actually IUD's also work by changing the mucous often even preventing fertilization.

 

[Incyte]

I just don't understand why it's the government's responsibility to prevent abortion. Just give the decision to the woman, it's her body. While it's very convenient to get rid of the "problem" and get an abortion, many women would go through the guilt before they even commit themselves to one. If they don't care about the baby, there's nothing there that would convince me that they'd grow up living a happy life with a happy mother.

It's great that you care about others, but as joepublic said, stop "meddling"! If the bible says that abortion would be a sin, GREAT! You're not going to go to HELL because someone ELSE decided to get one! Government is there to protect its people, NOT CONTROL THEM!

Do you believe the government should make murder criminal? You do? STOP MEDDLING! If the bible says that muder would be a sin, GREAT! You're not going to go to HELL because someone ELSE decided to commit a muder! Government is there to protect its people, NOT CONTROL THEM!

Me thinks you are missing the very point of the debate.

 

[Incyte]

Just a question to ponder. It sounds like your biological parents were mature and selfless enough to protect you from harm while still in the womb (ie: not abusing/using drugs and alcohol). Would the feeling be the same if you were born into a life with drug addiction and/or continual health deficiencies (bad heart, organs not fully formed, etc.) from drug use? Personally, I can't answer whether I would want that life or not. Part of me would rather not live that life, and part of me says I would overcome it.

The effects of drug use during pregnancy have actually been way over-hyped. There is a good chance the child would be pretty normal. Also, it seems very dangerous to begin making judgments of when other persons' life is "worth living". I don't think that's the argument pro-abortion forces want to hang their hat own.

CJR September/October 2004: Voices

 

[photomuse]

I am very pro-choice, however this issue is morally ambiguous for anyone. I do not believe the day after pill is morally wrong. I do not believe that an early term abortion is morally wrong. It shouldn't be an easy choice, and all women who choose this path should go through some sort of education and counsellings in my opinion. Its really hard to say when a fetus ceases to be a part of the woman's body and becomes its own entity, but some time around that time I believe abortion becomes ambiguous. Thus there is a grey area. Killing of infants I find morally wrong (although there have been times in the past in which this has been less taboo, just look at the Old Testiment.) I do not believe that an abortion during child birth is morally wrong if it saves the mother's life. However, I do think that later term abortions should be rare and have significant circumstances behind them, which I think they often do. I doubt that late term abortions are at all common in this country.

 

[Cyclone62]

Do you believe the government should make murder criminal? You do? STOP MEDDLING! If the bible says that muder would be a sin, GREAT! You're not going to go to HELL because someone ELSE decided to commit a muder! Government is there to protect its people, NOT CONTROL THEM!

Me thinks you are missing the very point of the debate.

Here's the thing that would need to be resolved before abortions are made illegal again. What would constitute murder, and when does life legally begin? As of right now, you aren't legally alive until you're outside the womb. If we say that life legally begins at conception, how do we hande miscarriages? Have a full investigation to ensure the mother didn't get an abortion, or do something to intentionally kill the baby? Right now, even though I don't agree with having an abortion, I think it's the best system available. Perfect? No. Safer for the mother? Yes.

The effects of drug use during pregnancy have actually been way over-hyped. There is a good chance the child would be pretty normal. Also, it seems very dangerous to begin making judgments of when other persons' life is "worth living". I don't think that's the argument pro-abortion forces want to hang their hat on.

CJR September/October 2004: Voices

If that post was confused as me trying to determine who's life is worth living or not, that wasn't my intention. Would a person in that situation want to live their life with all of those things? I'm not positive what I would want in that situation.

P.S. I fixed your spelling error. :wink0st: